[Jerico]

Originally Posted by jjjoy

I'd change your analogy a bit...

The students need to pass a test to go to the movies. Mary worked her butt off and passed the test with a "C." Janie worked her butt off longer (let's say there was an extra credit assignment to get the A) and got an "A."

They both get to go to the movies. They run into one of their teachers who says to Janie "It's so wonderful you got an 'A' You're a great student with a great future." Mary resents Janie because the teacher is making over Janie and Mary feels that her accomplishment is being ignored. Later they run into another teacher who says "You two must have passed that hard test! That's a hard test, isn't it? But all that matters is that you pass it!" Now Janie feels resentful because her extra effort to get the A is ignored. She put in more time than Mary and yet in the eyes of this teacher, there is no difference.

If it takes working one's butt off to just get a C then perhaps she SHOULD go to an ADN program because she probably isn't going to get into a BSN nursing program.

[scooterRN52]

Originally Posted by Aimee03

I wish people weren't absurd about ADN degrees. I have a ADN, want and will soon do my RN-BSN-MSN. The thing that qualifies me to get the EXACT, SAME pay as BSN rns is the fact that I passed the SAME NCLEX as the BSN people. I am a RN just like they are a RN. That's it. I did save A LOT of money and time by going to a community college. In fact my Community college has higher board passing scores than most of the universities. I guess we are doing something right!

My feelings exactly!!!!! I am an ADN also for the past 18 years!


Thank- you!!!!

[caroladybelle]

Originally Posted by Jerico

If it takes working one's butt off to just get a C then perhaps she SHOULD go to an ADN program because she probably isn't going to get into a BSN nursing program.

I hate to tell you but in my home area, it is easier to get into the local BSN program than the local ADN program. The local BSN programs cost more, have a much poorer NCLEX pass rate, one can get in with a lower GPA, and the closest one has had problems keeping it's NLN accreditation.

It would be nice if people stopped the sniping trivial comments that clearly display a lack of knowledge, and also a lack of "professionalism".

I do not cut down people who seek a higher degree - education is a good thing. But there is a basic educational level for RNs and it lies in the typical three year program for ADNs/Diploma level. If one wishes to exceed it for more advancement, more power to them.

But professionalism, lies in how one behaves and carries oneself....and that has nothing to do with professionalism. I have walked into some of the best hospitals in this Nation and been taken for the Charge nurse, the research nurse, or the NP. Why? Because I care about my job , I educate myself, not in theory or "management", but in what counts. I tell them about ATGAM, about how HD IL2 works, and the side effects. About the differences between leucoreduced cells, HLA matched, washed and irradiated and why which pt requires which. I can quote the ballpark ranges for procrit, neulasta, lovenox - and explain to the MD that in most facilities, MS Contin tablets cost about the same, no matter the dosage....thus helping the patient by getting their 3 - 30mg tabs to a single 100mg, which will be cheaper, easier to swallow and more effective. I can calm my freaked out leukemia patient getting their first dose of chemo or second bone marrow aspiration, with medication but also by talking to them about stories, sights, and scenes of their life, so that they are distracted and the fear dissipates.

Has a masters degree requirement helped our patients? You know, the reason why we are here,...the patient. Well, now, getting an OT consult takes several days to a week in community hospitals, instead of being a same day procedure. Getting a PT consult at Hopkins requires several days....days in which my cancer patient could have been rehabbed and out of the hospital, enjoying life.

And life, when measured in minutes and hours, instead of years becomes a valuable commodity.

One of the higher ranked hospitals that I have worked (and I have worked several), had one of the worst records among the nurses for med issues with the pharmacy. Problems included wrong meds, delayed meds, incomplete processing of chemo orders, inaccurate transcription of chemo orders, mag sent up marked with labels for ABX, pyxis not being refilled, declining to fill med orders for various reasons, and never notifying the MD/nurse, not filling narcotic reorders on a timely basis. Trying having your cancer patient wait 4 hours for morphine....in a major oncology center, because they ran out.

Why the problems...because many of these tasks, because of lack of PharmDs ...are facilitated by techs. And the PharmDs are paid well, but seriously overextended.

Is this what you want for our patients...and for nurses?

I don't care how much respect I might get or how high the pay, it wouldn't be enough to work in that environment.

I don't look to other people for respect... I only look to myself and G-d for that. But I could not respect myself and my work, pushing me farther from the patient and turning into commodity rather than an intergral part of health care. And these days PT and OT are beoming more of a luxury item. Nursing care should not be a luxury service.

As far as respect, pay and job security, we can look to Canada, ND, and the Philippines for the benefits of the BSN. But we don't have to look far...many of them are here, preferring the respect afforded our "lesser educated" nurse culture.

Would making us all have an equal education change the bickering...certainly not. It would not make one iota of difference. People will also bicker over trivial class and caste issues...it is human nature. Some of us choose to accept those differences. Others choose to expend way too much energy and time on them.

[San Diego New Grad]

Hi everyone--new member and first time poster here.

This may have been addressed in another post in this thread, so my apologies if this is redundant, but I didn't want to read through every single one. I've heard this "debate" over and over and I don't think there is any good or definitive answer. Is community college "less" of a school than a university? What about a state school vs. and ivy league school? Or what about graduating from a BSN program in the "top 10" vs. the "top 100"? How about a 2.0 GPA from a university vs. a 4.0 from a CC? Are they equal because one was a BSN and the other an ASN? What about NCLEX scores? It might be interesting to see the pass rates and scores of BSN vs ASN prepared nurses. And then we can go further into the whole health care tier--CRNA's vs Family practice MD's? I would venture to say that although the CRNA doesn't have a doctorate, (s)he deserves more pay because of the job. Or what about an PNP and the pediatrician? They pretty much do the same thing--and they can both write scripts. So there's the debate on moving the NP programs to doctorate rather than master's degrees. It's never going to end.

We used the same textbooks as the BSN programs. My instructors were just as equally prepared as the ones who taught at the big univeristy--MSN's, PhD's, and NP's. In fact, one of them is also an adjunct professor at the university's MSN program and taught us how to read EKG's. When I was doing clinicals on a telemetry floor, a new BSN grad from the U of Washington was surprised that I could interpret rhythms because she never learned that in nursing school. Not only could I interpret rhythms, I also knew the clinical significance of the more common ones and knew how to implement nursing interventions. (My cardiac instructor ROCKED!)

School does not always prepare you for real life, so I don't think that a few extra letters automatically gives you extra knowledge or skill. The amount of education/school isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of deserving more pay.

[Chloe'sinNYNow]

Originally Posted by San Diego New Grad

Hi everyone--new member and first time poster here.

This may have been addressed in another post in this thread, so my apologies if this is redundant, but I didn't want to read through every single one. I've heard this "debate" over and over and I don't think there is any good or definitive answer. Is community college "less" of a school than a university? What about a state school vs. and ivy league school? Or what about graduating from a BSN program in the "top 10" vs. the "top 100"? How about a 2.0 GPA from a university vs. a 4.0 from a CC? Are they equal because one was a BSN and the other an ASN? What about NCLEX scores? It might be interesting to see the pass rates and scores of BSN vs ASN prepared nurses. And then we can go further into the whole health care tier--CRNA's vs Family practice MD's? I would venture to say that although the CRNA doesn't have a doctorate, (s)he deserves more pay because of the job. Or what about an PNP and the pediatrician? They pretty much do the same thing--and they can both write scripts. So there's the debate on moving the NP programs to doctorate rather than master's degrees. It's never going to end.

We used the same textbooks as the BSN programs. My instructors were just as equally prepared as the ones who taught at the big univeristy--MSN's, PhD's, and NP's. In fact, one of them is also an adjunct professor at the university's MSN program and taught us how to read EKG's. When I was doing clinicals on a telemetry floor, a new BSN grad from the U of Washington was surprised that I could interpret rhythms because she never learned that in nursing school. Not only could I interpret rhythms, I also knew the clinical significance of the more common ones and knew how to implement nursing interventions. (My cardiac instructor ROCKED!)

School does not always prepare you for real life, so I don't think that a few extra letters automatically gives you extra knowledge or skill. The amount of education/school isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of deserving more pay.

Hi San Diego,
yes indeed this topic is as old as the sand between Moses' toes already, but not the way acadamians (?) choose to deal w/ it. Many of us overpaying 2nd degree students argued w/ our own faculty about being gypped in clinical hours compared to the community colleges and were told we actually were receiving just as many if not more and they proved it by showing us the numbers in plain black and white.

If anything when i had my summer externship, I met other student nurses fr all over the state schools who concurred. So it's more a matter of where we were lucky enough to get our clinicals, who instructed us, who precepted us along that path. Not to mention, where we chose to get our externships or IF. Some of my classmates didn't get that experience b/c they chose not to for personal reasons (family, free time, other...)

The main theme from my BSN school director was not to sweat the technical skills, but learn the basics. All else would come w/ training on the job b/c our school lectures were supposed to teach us to critically think. So far that has gotten me graduated, thru boards on my first attempt w/ minimal questions, and to a job offering. I found a position in a local hospital that agrees too. They love new grads and don't expect me to know anything! And remain grateful for me not having to un-learn bad habits fr elsewhere.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's all relative to our experiences, but the schools seem to know that they are competing w/ each other and for our warm bodies. They know that they have to offer minimum clinical hours in addition to all else lectures. (personally my school could have been more liberal in their lab availability and offerings, but alas, they were in charge; guess I learned my first act of humility there. LOL )

Chloe
RN-BSN, BA

[scooterRN52]

Originally Posted by San Diego New Grad

Hi everyone--new member and first time poster here.

This may have been addressed in another post in this thread, so my apologies if this is redundant, but I didn't want to read through every single one. I've heard this "debate" over and over and I don't think there is any good or definitive answer. Is community college "less" of a school than a university? What about a state school vs. and ivy league school? Or what about graduating from a BSN program in the "top 10" vs. the "top 100"? How about a 2.0 GPA from a university vs. a 4.0 from a CC? Are they equal because one was a BSN and the other an ASN? What about NCLEX scores? It might be interesting to see the pass rates and scores of BSN vs ASN prepared nurses. And then we can go further into the whole health care tier--CRNA's vs Family practice MD's? I would venture to say that although the CRNA doesn't have a doctorate, (s)he deserves more pay because of the job. Or what about an PNP and the pediatrician? They pretty much do the same thing--and they can both write scripts. So there's the debate on moving the NP programs to doctorate rather than master's degrees. It's never going to end.

We used the same textbooks as the BSN programs. My instructors were just as equally prepared as the ones who taught at the big univeristy--MSN's, PhD's, and NP's. In fact, one of them is also an adjunct professor at the university's MSN program and taught us how to read EKG's. When I was doing clinicals on a telemetry floor, a new BSN grad from the U of Washington was surprised that I could interpret rhythms because she never learned that in nursing school. Not only could I interpret rhythms, I also knew the clinical significance of the more common ones and knew how to implement nursing interventions. (My cardiac instructor ROCKED!)

School does not always prepare you for real life, so I don't think that a few extra letters automatically gives you extra knowledge or skill. The amount of education/school isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of deserving more pay.

I agree with you, as I have an ADN from a community college and by tne way, they had better pass scores than universities and 4 year programs. I have been a nurse for 18 years.

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by scooterRN52

I agree with you, as I have an ADN from a community college and by tne way, they had better pass scores than universities and 4 year programs. I have been a nurse for 18 years.

It the opposite here, in fact the BSN program had the highest success rate in the state for several years 97% and 100% is not uncommon, whereas the 3 ADN programs typically are in the 85%.

You can't generalize one way or the other.

[o.kiki.d]

.....

[o.kiki.d]

Originally Posted by cottoncandyclouds

Hi all.

I In community college they basically pay you to go, and at a University, you take on soooo many student loans. .

I don't know what you heard but no one is "paying me to go" to this ASN program I am working so hard at. I, too, have taken out a load of student loans to finance my education, community college though it be, and I'll continue to. I'd love to know how I can get in on this great opportunity...

sarcasm: see above

[scooterRN52]

Originally Posted by cottoncandyclouds

University today....... your boss tomorrow

Hi,
I've been an ADN for 18 years and have been a boss of other nurses and didn't
like it, I don't want to be in charge of other people unless it is my own business.
I would much rather be staff, there is more autonomy in that than a boss.