[txspadequeen921]

Originally Posted by sher10

For heavens sake, can this poor dead horse not be left alone??? Shall we beat it some more???

[TangoLima]

Originally Posted by futurecnm

That sounded really bad. I don't know one ADN grad who would ever say they are "only" a ADN. Bad choice of words and quotes in my opinion.

Well, no joke. I know it sounds bad, that's why I said "I don't mean that to sound bad, but just trying to make a point." I personally don't have anything against an ADN, but I was trying to make a bigger point that there is too much contention between ADNs and BSNs and we should really focus on what will further the profession of nursing.

[hiddencat]

"All the ones I've seen have."

Some ADN programs include the prereqs, some don't. It depends on where you are and what school you're looking at. My local CC includes them, BUT the program is so competitive that you do better with admissions if you already have the prereqs.

Here's an example of non-integrated prerequisites:
http://seattlecentral.edu/programs/nursing.php#crs

and another:
http://www.shoreline.edu/nurse.html

and another:
http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

and another:
http://www.tacomacc.edu/academics/ar...equisites.aspx

and another:
http://www.spscc.ctc.edu/academics/p...ion-packet.pdf

and here's a 3-year ASN program:
http://www.laf.ivytech.edu/degree_pr...=Nursing%20ASN

Remember: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It might be helpful to consider that your experience might not be universal.

[chaxanmom]

Originally Posted by hiddencat

"All the ones I've seen have."

Some ADN programs include the prereqs, some don't. It depends on where you are and what school you're looking at. My local CC includes them, BUT the program is so competitive that you do better with admissions if you already have the prereqs.

Here's an example of non-integrated prerequisites:
http://seattlecentral.edu/programs/nursing.php#crs

and another:
http://www.shoreline.edu/nurse.html

and another:
http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

and another:
http://www.tacomacc.edu/academics/ar...equisites.aspx

and another:
http://www.spscc.ctc.edu/academics/p...ion-packet.pdf

and here's a 3-year ASN program:
http://www.laf.ivytech.edu/degree_pr...=Nursing%20ASN

Remember: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It might be helpful to consider that your experience might not be universal.

Right but they are still included in the credit hours on these which is what we were trying to say. For example the pcc link says 55 nursing and 51 support even if you take all the pre-reqs and then all the nursing. Anyway, the point was that yes a bachelor's degree still requires more credit hours TOTAL than an associate's degree. Hey I'm not saying ADN nurses shouldn't practice or anything, just saying an associate's degree is not a bachelor's degree. That's not really something that's even debatable.

[hiddencat]

Originally Posted by chaxanmom

Hey I'm not saying ADN nurses shouldn't practice or anything, just saying an associate's degree is not a bachelor's degree. That's not really something that's even debatable.

It seems like the question is actually to what extent they differ, not do they differ. How do clinical hours compare? Material covered? Liberal Arts Electives? Length of program? Cost? Overall preparation?

I'd be interested in looking at the studies that show better outcomes for patients of BSN nurses. I'm wondering to what extent they account for the socioeconomic background of the nurses- associate degrees tend to be more accessible for non-traditional students, students without a lot of economic support, students with other commitments.

I'd rather do an accelerated BSN because it will take me LESS time to complete, but I'm coming to the realization that there just might be no way on earth for me to afford it with my Stafford nearly tapped from my first degree, poor credit and no one to cosign student loans. So as of right now, I'm awful glad that there isn't a BSN entry requirement to nursing. And from what my paramedic fiance tells me, the community college graduates have a reputation in our town for being better prepared to start working as nurses.

[chaxanmom]

Originally Posted by hiddencat

It seems like the question is actually to what extent they differ, not do they differ. How do clinical hours compare? Material covered? Liberal Arts Electives? Length of program? Cost? Overall preparation?

I'd be interested in looking at the studies that show better outcomes for patients of BSN nurses. I'm wondering to what extent they account for the socioeconomic background of the nurses- associate degrees tend to be more accessible for non-traditional students, students without a lot of economic support, students with other commitments.

I'd rather do an accelerated BSN because it will take me LESS time to complete, but I'm coming to the realization that there just might be no way on earth for me to afford it with my Stafford nearly tapped from my first degree, poor credit and no one to cosign student loans. So as of right now, I'm awful glad that there isn't a BSN entry requirement to nursing. And from what my paramedic fiance tells me, the community college graduates have a reputation in our town for being better prepared to start working as nurses.

I don't know that there's much, if any, difference in bedside care AFAIK. The difference is mainly in how a BSN requirement affects the profession as a whole. The trend is toward more education for ALL professions so why not nursing? Eventually it's going to catch up with us. I agree that ADN programs tend to attract non-traditional students with less economic support, etc. What I would like to see is more RN-BSN programs. I think distance programs are awesome because it allows you to get more education while juggling other commitments. I think RNs should be encouraged to get their BSN but I do think ADN programs are a necessary stepping stone to get your foot in the door for a lot of people. I think one of the things the ANA could be doing is working on more educational grants for nursing education, particularly for LPNs and ADNs to afford BSN programs. I think BSNs are best for the profession but yeah I see the difficulties that are there for getting a BSN too.

[hiddencat]

Originally Posted by chaxanmom

I think one of the things the ANA could be doing is working on more educational grants for nursing education, particularly for LPNs and ADNs to afford BSN programs.

I couldn't agree more- loan forgiveness is all well and good, but more scholarships and grants for the costs up-front are definitely needed.

[jjjoy]

Interesting, huh? One ASN program requires less than 70 credit hours and another over 100! (That's including nursing classes and gen ed and not 'remedial' courses needed to qualify for required coursework).

Bachelor's degrees generally require around 64 lower division credits and 64 upper division credits (based on an average of 16 units/semester which is usually considered full-time) so that's over 120 credit hours.

Since the ADN qualifies one to be an RN and for all types of clinical work that require an RN, the clinical instruction (nursing, pathophys, pharm, etc) of ADN and BSN programs SHOULD be equivalent, shouldn't they? So what IS the extra that a BSN can provide to a practicing nurse? Currently, it's the 'well-roundedness' that any bachelor's degree purports to provide as well as perhaps more emphasis on non-bedside nursing roles such as public health nursing, school nursing, research nursing, etc. In regard to well-roundedness, any bachelor's degree should suffice. In regard to the 'extra' nursing content, it's mostly not relevant to a bedside nurse.

The kicker to me is that so many say BSN is for those who want to pursue administration. I know my program had one 3 unit course that lumped all legal/administrative/ethical nursing issues together. That doesn't exactly prepare me to be an administrator. Even for other non-bedside roles, it was one course on community health (home health, public health, child health, etc), one course on research... again, more like "intro to other nursing roles" as opposed to actually training us for such roles.

[txspadequeen921]

Originally Posted by chaxanmom

. I think one of the things the ANA could be doing is working on more educational grants for nursing education, particularly for LPNs and ADNs to afford BSN programs.

[chaxanmom]

Originally Posted by txspadequeen921

Originally Posted by hiddencat

I couldn't agree more- loan forgiveness is all well and good, but more scholarships and grants for the costs up-front are definitely needed.

Well there we go, we have ourselves an issue to lobby! I live in the suburbs of D.C. so come on over and let's go to Washington!