[krystaldragon721]

RN, ADN, BA (Sociology) here. There are smart nurses, there are dumb nurses. The level of education doesn't mean diddly squat, it's about what you put into it. How many idiot doctors are there out there? Lots of them..and they make way more money than any of us do. But there again, a good doctor is one who puts his time and interest into the profession. I used to work in a trauma/ER unit. Average patient number per day was 400. We had residence working there. How much school is that? 8 years? One of the residence's ordered 7mg of Decadron for a 6 month old. My theory is he is dumber than a jack hammer.
What is the first thing they teach us in nursing school? Never, never, never IV push potassium. I'll never forget the last week of school, my clinical cohorts and I were sitting around joking about passing the final and someone made a joke about writing down how fast you push potassium. One of the other students, serious as a heart attack, says "how fast do you push potassium?" Now she had the same education I did....soooooooo what's up? It's all about what you put into it.

[JustMe]

Originally Posted by butch228

hi everyone..
this is well known debate that eveyone gets tired because there are so many nurses out there..dipolma, ADN, BSN grads that everyone takes this argument personally...anyways..my point is that if the health care profession wants to take nurses as seriously ...professionals..as opposed to "angels that care"..we need the education to back it up...the reason..why diploma nurses and ADN graduates cont to work as nurses..is because the demand is huge....so thats why non BSN graduates cont to get hired..even in big teaching hospitals..if youlook at other professions...Teachers...require masters degrees..physical therapists..are soon requiring doctorates...this has nothing to do with the competency of diploma or ADN nurses........I'm actually an ADN nurse....who went back to school as a second career...because the demand is high..I knew that I didnt need a BSN to get a RN job

This is the first posting I've read that discusses the professionalism of nursing. "Professionals" like doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. all have college degrees. Nurses are professionals and we, too, should have some kind of college degree. As to who makes the better nurse? Think about it. How many of us see poor medical care from certain doctors? Remind yourself that every graduating class has someone who graduates at the bottom of the list!

[blueiwahine]

I have my BSN degree...have to admit I never really worked as an aide...I attempted it, but nursing school was a ***** and between that and trying to deal with family matters too...there just wasn't enought time to be an aide and keep my grades decent... and I do admit it hurt me....Yes! I know there are people that have done it...but I was not able to...call me weak if it makes you feel better...I came from a non medical background. I was 38 when I started nursing school ...42 when I finished it...and I have no problem letting you know I do not feel as competant as some nurses who got their LVN or ADN...but that doesn't mean I won't get it all undercontrol with a little work experience...I thought about going LVN, upward mobility route, etc...but when all said and done it was shorter to just do my BSN. So everyone will have different levels of nursing experience...but I'm sure for all it will come with time...I do not feel that I am better than an LVN or ADN...everyone had a reason why they went to the level they did. I do understand there are alot of snotty BSN newcomers...but that doesn't mean everyone is that way.

[kittenlittle]

[quote=butch228;2220188]hi everyone..
this is well known debate that eveyone gets tired because there are so many nurses out there..dipolma, ADN, BSN grads that everyone takes this argument personally...anyways..my point is that if the health care profession wants to take nurses as seriously ...professionals..as opposed to "angels that care"..we need the education to back it up...the reason..why diploma nurses and ADN graduates cont to work as nurses..is because the demand is huge....so thats why non BSN graduates cont to get hired..even in big teaching hospitals..if youlook at other professions...Teachers...require masters degrees..physical therapists..are soon requiring doctorates...this has nothing to do with the competency of diploma or ADN nurses........I'm actually an ADN nurse....who went back to school as a second career...because the demand is high..I knew that I didnt need a BSN to get a RN job



There are really two issues here;

1) "Nursing as a Profession", requiring entry level having their BSN. This is the only way we stand a chance to be viewed as true professionals, just like with physicians, lawyers, teachers, physical therapists, and occupational therapists, etc.

2) Higher education for higher wages with the same workload. This is a great incentive to get our current seasoned ADN's and Diploma RN's to obtain their BSN so we can be viewed as true professionals!
I too still need to finish my RN-BSN, yet I do not feel that a BSN necessarily makes you a 'better' nurse. We just all need to get on the same page and stick together once and for all.

[BikerDi]

After 20+ years of nursing as a Diploma RN and my experience being Med-Surg, SICU, Trauma, Transplant and Informatics - I am not going back to school to get a BSN. It just doesn't make sense for me to do this at this time in my life, it would not mean any more money, or higher career ladder.

I wanted to go to a Diploma program because it offered me what I needed. At the time the BSN programs were few in my area and I didn't want to go to ADN.

I was a non-traditional student, married, 2 children and working part time. I worked first as a Unit Secretary and then later as a Student Tech NA. While in school served as an officer of our Student Nurse Association and was active in the national and state associations. I continue to be active at the national, state and local levels of the nursing associations. I continue to go to conferences not only as an attendee but also as a presenter.

I have advanced in my career every time I made a change.

The bottom line...
Every licensed RN took the same NCLEX exam. Does that make everyone equal? Yes, as entry level Registered Nurses. What you do after that is dependent upon your knowledge and skill and knowing how to apply it. Sometimes education might play a part and sometimes it doesn't. Until the Peter Principle comes into play...this I have seen quite a bit unfortunately.

I love being a nurse and am thankful that I have had this opportunity in my lifetime.

[IrishEyes20]

Originally Posted by BikerDi

The bottom line...
Every licensed RN took the same NCLEX exam. Does that make everyone equal? Yes, as entry level Registered Nurses. What you do after that is dependent upon your knowledge and skill and knowing how to apply it. Sometimes education might play a part and sometimes it doesn't. Until the Peter Principle comes into play...this I have seen quite a bit unfortunately

Exactly. You hit the head of the nail on this one. Looking at this debate as a new nursing student I can see where everone is coming from. There aren't very many schools in my area that offered a BSN program or I may have just went that route. I was just accepted into the Nursing program for Fall 07 and I have been attending my current school the last 3 years (a county college) The first 2 years for pre reqs and the last year waiting. The ASN program will take me a total of 2 years giving me a total of 5 years for my ASN degree. I plan on pursing my BSN because I like learning and more education never killed anyone. That would give me a grand total of 7 years.... something is telling me I should have become a Doctor. (just kidding )

I really just think we need to keep in mind what BikerDi said. Hey we are all on the same team right?

By the way, this is my first post... don't be to harsh, haha.

Take care, Leslie

[picasso]

HI, I hear your frustration and I've been there... this is such an old issue that I've heard and experienced myself. I'm a Canadian Nurse, I started out as a Nurses Aide when I was 16 years old and then did my LPN and then became a Registered Psychiatric Nurse, then I did my Advanced Diploma in Psychiatric Nursing and recently achieved a BSPN. I worked very hard to achieve a degree...it cost me alot of time, money sacrifice and relationships. I don't agree that a Nurses Aide should make the same amount as a person with advanced education...what would be the incentive to achieve higher education if that was the case? Should a lawyer earn the same as his secretary. Its not a matter of the NA working harder or knowing more than the degree nurse...its a matter of qualifications to fit the job requirement. I used to share your view before I knew what is actually involved and all I can say is that things are not as simple as they appear to be to the "untrained eye." At times I let my emotions lead to making judgmental call and called nurses 'stupid' because there assessments differed than my 'on-the-job' trainng and I also took things personal. I also went back to school to earn the credibility I knew I deserved and so that I could provide my patients with the best care I can give. NOt everyone has the opportunity for higher education...family committments, finances, access to education to name a few. There were many times I helped a new RN through the transition time from student to 'charge nurse' and showed them how to do new procedures and covered up there mistakes...yes there are incompetent nurses and there are incompetent para professionals, but I still say that if your investing in education and willing to accept the additional responsibility that comes with the health care system then yes you deserve financial compensation... it does not translate into 'better than others.'

[yeljet]

I had my BSN from the Philippines and I'm proud that even though we are a developing country, we only have one pathway (BSN) to become a Registered Nurse.

I worked in the United Kingdom for six years, they too have associate and degree courses and before I left, there were debates to change the curriculum to an all-degree level of education.

I remember my college professor who fought for the all-degree nursing in the Philippines. Her argument is that for nurses to deliver quality health care, they should all be first class and educated at degree level.

If I will be a patient, I want the best nurse to care for me. A nurse that is caring, competent, and certain of what he or she is doing.

[romansten9]

lovegoddess, since you are the person that started this thread, I wanted to respond to you. I agree that the letters behind your name have little to do with how well you will do your job, or how much you should get paid. We all come from very different backgrounds! I know of TRUCK DRIVERS that were formally Physicians! Society snubs their noses at someone that drives a truck, but you NEVER know who you are talking to! I'm sure there are many nurse aides that have higher IQs and more common sense than many RNs, you just never know...Some nurse aides may read medical school textbooks in their spare time.... That aide may understand way more than an RN about medicine and the human body....

As for myself, I am currently taking an ADN program...I will graduate with 7 years of school under my belt and 20 years of Critical Care experience as a Paramedic and as an ACLS and PALS Instructor. I fully expect to have "BSN" Nurses look down on me because I "only" have an Associate degree. ONLY? with 7 years of school and 20 years experience, I should be looking down on them! But of course, thats not my personality, and I won't do that...Its all very sad really. We take such great care of our patients and then we attack each other! Why can't we all get along?? Why don't we pat each other on the back and say good job! Treat everyone as an equal, all the way from Nurse Aide to Physician.(Thank you to those of you that do)

[sprout]

The only differences I have found at the entry level between a BSN and ADN are the amount of nursing theory, management, and public health classes - clinical time is the same if not more in a ADN program. I graduated from an ADN program and had more clinical time than my friends in a BSN program. WE ALL HAVE TO PASS THE SAME NCLEX to become a nurse. Everyone in my ADN program passed the NCLEX on the first try. I couldn't say the same for my friends and their classmates.

Nurses should be rewarded for experience. No one can say that they can read a book and be an excellent nurse. It's the hands on training that makes us better at nursing not the amount of education we have. Certainly education is important, but if I am a patient, I don't care if my nurse has had more time in the classroom. I care if she has experience dealing with real patients and situations. Education at the entry level is the beginning of all the learning we do as nurses. You get out and work and you hone your skills. Ultimately, it's the amount of NURSING experience that we are paid for. How you become and RN shouldn't matter.

In the area I live, the schools that offer BSN programs are considerably more expensive. Many have programs for RN-BSN and give credit for experience. Even the schools recognize that you can't learn to be a great nurse from a book - it's the training you get on the job. If cost is not an option, I encourage people to get their BSN because it takes about the same amount of time in school with all the prerequisites you have to take prior to being accepted in a ADN program. But I also encourage people to get their ADN, work as a nurse, and take advantage of the tuition reimbursement programs employers offer. I work with both BSN, ADN, and diploma nurses. The amount of experience is what separates us all, not the level of education we received. Give me a diploma nurse with 20 years of experience over a new grad with a BSN any day.