[Freedom42]

Originally Posted by lovegoddess1977

Okay so here's my point.

I have been reading several things on here about "I have my BSN so therefore I should make more money..blah, blah, blah" Frankly I am sick of hearing it. Let me give you a little background on me before I finish what I started.

I started out as an STNA (CNA) about 8 years ago. Then I went and got my LPN. Now I am getting my ADN and I will graduate in May 2008. Once I get my ADN I am planning on going back and getting my BSN... Just because you have more education does not mean that you are better and should be paid more. Honestly, BSN is a choice. It is a choice that I want to make. Why would an employer pay a BSN all this money when they could pay an ADN or a Diploma RN less money for the same job? Therefore...around the same pay for both.

A question for the OP: If education is sometimes overrated, why do you plan to pursue your BSN? Yes, I know it's a choice. But why are you pursuing it if ADNs and BSNs do the same job?

And have you considered that you are supporting hospitals' efforts to suppress wages -- and therefore, your future BSN pay check -- when you argue that ADNs and BSNs should make the same amount of money? After all, if hospitals paid nurses based on their levels of education, there would be a lot more incentive for nurses to pursue BSNs and master's degrees, wouldn't there?

I agree that education can't be equated with performance (George W. Bush did go to Yale). But as long as hospitals are allowed to lump BSNs and ADNs in the same job category, wages will remain suppressed. That's why it's in our best interest for educational credentials to be a factor in compensation. I believe it's Tweety's hospital that offers skill-based pay -- acquire a new skill or certification, and your pay will go up. That's an incentive, and that's fair.

[RNGrad2006]

Originally Posted by jjjoy

Keep in mind that if a BSN-prepared nurse says or implies that BSN is a "superior" education, they might have explicitly been taught that. If that's the case, they need gentle education as to what is involved in other nursing education paths. Why gentle? Because you will be challenging something that an instructor told them and at that point it's just your word against their instructor. It will take time for the new grad to be able to make a judgement for themselves on it.

I DID have nursing instructors explicitly say that the BSN program taught more critical thinking and that BSNs would soon be the entry to practice. And I WAS surprised at to find out that ADNs covered the SAME material as BSN students in regard to most aspects of nursing. I didn't even realize that our test questions were specifically written to reflect NCLEX questions as I didn't start thinking about the NCLEX until just before graduation. I was also surprised that a new RN could be oriented by an LPN. In school we always only worked witih RNs so I didn't realize the degree to which LPNs were utilized and worked independently. We were told that we might work with LPNs and that we'd responsible for delegation but that's about it.

Unless they've had experience in nursing, the students are reliant upon their schools to inform them of the state of their profession and not all nursing schools do that. Is it right? No. But getting offended at a misinformed comment doesn't help correct the misinformation.

I think you are right but I still think it is rude to make such a comment to a nurse who is taking the time on a busy shift to take on their usual patient load as well as a student knowing full well the nurse they are making the comment to is at the ADN level. I know what you are saying. I started as an LPN with no intention of stopping there but our ADN RN instructors were very negative of LPN's and basically told us that we wouldn't make it as RN's since RN programs are so superior to LPN programs. I did not agree with that but I went into this as an older student and as a mature student I didn't believe everything our instructors told us. But I think you are right those with no prior experience may be very influenced by what they are told. I had the benefit of working in healthcare for many years before studying nursing. However, the longer I study the more I feel I have to learn. I recently started a RN to BSN program. I am glad for the opportunity to continue on with my education with employer tuition support for a change. It is a sacrifice for my family as it takes time away from them but I also will be the first person in my family to get a bachelors degree. I am also lucky to have a husband who supports me 100%. I couldn't do it without him.

[shodobe]

Originally Posted by canoehead

Bleah, must we continue with this divisive and unproductive argument?

Totally agree!!! This is the same crap that gets rehashed over and over. My point is get over it! Who really cares about this argument. Good for those who go on for higher education, good for those who like to stay in their comfortable surroundings.

[firstyearstudent]

I think that BSN should be the entry level for nursing. Why? Because the ADN is not really a credential that is indicative of the hard work that goes into a nursing education. Let's make sure all nurses get their due.

This is a difficult discipline but the public thinks it's a cakewalk because it's a two year degree. I got a four year degree (unrelated) before getting my ADN and all I could think was, what a rip off! The average ADN grad does more work for his or her degree than the average master's student in most other professions. Absolutely. Also, most ADN grads now take about a year of preparation if they're starting out of high school. Why not have them do another year and get more respect?

Personally, I feel ripped off. New programs are cropping up to get master's degrees in nursing without a BSN (just a prior bachelor's). I could have gotten a master's degree in about the same amount of time and all I have is an ADN for my hard work.

Why is there all this resistance about making a BSN the entry. The nurses who are already practicing would be grandfathered and those nurses would also increase in prestige. No one would take anything from anyone. It's about looking to the future.

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by firstyearstudent

I think that BSN should be the entry level for nursing. Why? Because the ADN is not really a credential that is indicative of the hard work that goes into a nursing education. Let's make sure all nurses get their due.

I agree and can understand the feellings of being ripped off. ADN programs have added so many "pre-reqs" and other courses that the end result seems a bit more than "just an ADN" that takes only two years. Spending over three years getting an ADN seems insulting.

[firstyearstudent]

Originally Posted by Tweety

I agree and can understand the feellings of being ripped off. ADN programs have added so many "pre-reqs" and other courses that the end result seems a bit more than "just an ADN" that takes only two years. Spending over three years getting an ADN seems insulting.

And they're VERY HARD years. You know, there are plenty of bachelor's degree you can get in three years with approximately the same amount of work (although perhaps not credit hours).

[llg]

Originally Posted by Tweety

I agree and can understand the feellings of being ripped off. ADN programs have added so many "pre-reqs" and other courses that the end result seems a bit more than "just an ADN" that takes only two years. Spending over three years getting an ADN seems insulting.

I agree whole-heartedlly, as I have said many time on allnurses. The people who should be most angry about the current state of affairs are the current ADN and Diploma students. Their schools are taking their money and requiring almost as much work as a typical bachelor's program -- but not awarding them the higher level degree. In many cases, they are getting ripped off by their schools.

The only way to justify the existence of the ADN and Diploma programs is to make them clearly different from the BSN programs -- and most schools don't want to do that. They want their grads to be considered equal to the BSN grads, but won't make the necessary changes to be allowed to award the BSN degree.

[HerbalGypsy]

My only response is that to become an RN, ADNs and BSNs all must take and pass the same exam. Therefore, they should get the same pay.

[kathi yudin]

i don't believe that it is the degree that makes you a good nurse.. it is common sense and attitude.. i started as a nurses aide.. went to a diploma program and then an adn program back in the 70's when nurses did team nursing and emptied bedpans.. gave bed baths and back rubs.. in 2004 got my bsn and am now in a masters program going for my gnp.. school prepares us for nursing dx .. caring for patients.. it does not prepare us for the real world.. that comes after graduation.. and with experience.. as director of nursing.. i work w/ many new grads who come out of school thinking that they know it all and can do it all.. they are looking at care through rose colored glasses.. and are not prepared for the actual workload.. book work may be there.. skills may not.. in an adn program there is more emphasis on skills.. in a bsn program.. emphasis on books.. however.. the actual learning does not take place until they actually get a job and have to work in the real world.. lpn..lvn.. rn.. adn.. bsn.. doesn't make you a nurse.. it just gives you the tools needed.. what makes you a nurse is how you handle the pressure.. the skills.. the patients.. in the real world.. remember that attitude is everything.. being open to learn from those who have been there.. that is what seperates the nurses from the wanna be's.. no matter what the preparation..

[kathi yudin]

no insult intended to you.. however.. i do feel that your instructor has insulted every nurse that is working and every student when saying any monkey can be taught to do... we are not monkeys.. we are trained professionals that have gone through yrs of schooling to learn and understand... while we may be descended from apes.. i truly do not believe we can teach a monkey to start an iv.. watch for the side effects of medications.. the start of illness prior to it actually being evident.. any teacher that can say that.. should not be teaching.. and by the way.. i do teach lvn students..so i am aware of what goes into preparing students..