[FrumDoula]

Originally Posted by SmilingBluEyes

Well perhaps, but CNMs, at least, ARE nurses first and always. Being "stuck" in nurse mode is not always a bad thing,either.

It does not necessarily make for a better midwife, though. And doula studies found that it was actually preferable to NOT have a medically trained doula attend a woman. (Though we admittedly have no medical role in birth.)

I think that much of nursing and medicine, particularly when it comes to birth, is so fear based, that nurse-midwives have to divest themselves of this mindset in order to be at their optimum for the women they serve. CPM's and lay midwives, not having had the medical training, are less likely to approach birth with trepidation.

Now before everyone goes telling me about the CNM who is so granola that she crunches as she walks down the hall, and the lay midwife who acts like a mini-OB, I want to clarify that I'm speaking in generalities about the philosophical underpinings of nurse versus lay midwifery.

Interestingly, in studies done on outcomes of CNM's vs CPM's, it seems that having a nursing degree does not necessarily grant you more favorable results, just like having a medical degree doesn't get you healthier mothers and babies.

So while it's fine that those CNM's are nurses first, it might actually be more of a hindrance and less of a help at times. And depending on where the CNM is trained, and how controlling the OB department was in setting the tone of her training, as well as her personal bent on childbirth, CNM's are sometimes little more than obstetric handmaidens, sadly.

On Frontier - I've heard nothing but fantastic things about this program, particularly because you spend time not only learning the midwifery side, but the business side of things as well.

Alison

[SmilingBluEyes]

I think, Alison, we need to be careful with our verbage here. No one is "always" or "never" something. Please re-read my post. I said it's not ALWAYS bad to be "stuck in nurse mode" as a CNM.There are things we do and learn as nurses that are invaluable to midwifery practice. That is a fact. All the CNM's I have had the good fortune to work with were nurses first and very, very respectful of the family's choices and needs regarding their birthing experiences. They were VERY low intervention people, as well, doing tub births, very intermittent doppler monitoring, aroma/music therapies and other NON-medical skills served as staples of their "midwifery toolkits".

That so many people (including midwives) are against the medical model of childbirthing, I can very well understand.

But remember, we nurses DO possess skills that transcend machines, epidurals and monitors, ok? Our experiences can be invaluable and do count for a lot. Unless you are already a nurse, I can see where you may not understand this. But it bears repeating: Somethings need NOT be forgotten or lost as a person moves from bedside RN to CNM. It's NOT a bad thing to be a nurse first. We do learn about more than machines and monitors. We do care for PEOPLE first.

It may not be bad not to already be an RN, either. But I do think bedside experience cannot possibly hurt in CNM practice. Not having experience may be fine-----I am willing to allow it would depend on the INDIVIDUAL and his/her ambition and personal beliefs about birthing. Those are just as important as bedside experience for ANY practicioner. The learning curve will certainly be steep, but not insurmountable.

[AlaskaKat]

I've been looking at this school for a long time and it does seem solid. They DO require at least a year nursing experience for admission, which I think is a good thing.

CNMs are nurses, they should not forget that background. They are not doctors and generally don't follow a medical model. I'm not saying that there are not midwives that induce like mad and monitor everyone, but I have to agree that there are a lot of us labor nurses out here that still remember how to birth without drugs and how to support people in their decisions. I think people going into birth without any trepidition are foolish. Things happen. You know it and I know it. A good midwife knows it and can still provide very good very low intervention care to her mamas.

[parteiranagua]

Originally Posted by AlaskaKat

I've been looking at this school for a long time and it does seem solid. They DO require at least a year nursing experience for admission, which I think is a good thing.

CNMs are nurses, they should not forget that background. They are not doctors and generally don't follow a medical model. I'm not saying that there are not midwives that induce like mad and monitor everyone, but I have to agree that there are a lot of us labor nurses out here that still remember how to birth without drugs and how to support people in their decisions. I think people going into birth without any trepidition are foolish. Things happen. You know it and I know it. A good midwife knows it and can still provide very good very low intervention care to her mamas.

ok girls!!!! stop right here....
u probably are aware that some midwives were not trained as nurses before entering MW school. So where do they stand? they have the same accreditation and training!!!!
Ginny Doula RN BSN SNM

[SmilingBluEyes]

We already went through all of that, Ginny.

[parteiranagua]

Originally Posted by SmilingBluEyes

We already went through all of that, Ginny.

yes indeed we have as seen in previous posts as well... just a reminder..

Ginny Doula RN BSN SNM

[NRSKarenRN]

Originally Posted by Khadijah2

What kind of reputation does it have?

Mary Breckinridge introduced a model rural health care system into the United States in 1925. To provide professional services to neglected people of a thousand square mile area in southeastern Kentucky, she created a decentralized system of nurse-midwives, district nursing centers, and hospital facilities. Originally called the Kentucky Committee for Mothers and Babies, later the Frontier Nursing Service (FNS), the system lowered the rate of death in childbirth in Leslie County, Kentucky, from the highest in the nation to substantially below the national average. Thanks to FNS, nurse-midwives were no more than six miles away from any patients. Providing both preventive and curative nursing, FNS continues to serve this region. Staff members of the FNS formed the beginnings of the American College of Nurse-Midwives in 1929. The first school of midwifery was started at the Maternity Center in New York in 1932 by a FNS-certified nurse-midwife member. The FNS began its own school in 1939. http://nursingworld.org/hof/brecmx.htm

This program is one of the oldest in the nation and has an international reputation for educating quality midwives. Their low tech approach influence birthing trends across the country especially since the 80's return to more natural childbirth.

Hope the OP gets to attend this program.

[SmilingBluEyes]

Originally Posted by parteiranagua

ok girls!!!! stop right here....
u probably are aware that some midwives were not trained as nurses before entering MW school. So where do they stand? they have the same accreditation and training!!!!
Ginny Doula RN BSN SNM

You asked where they stand; I think you do know already. They are Certified Nurse Midwives upon graduation and taking their boards and to be recognized and treated as such. No one is arguing that.

That they lack experience as nurses first is controversial as to whether it is good or not. I have never worked with a midwife who did not work as a bedside nurse first, so I can't judge how "good" they are. I imagine the learning curve is steep, but as motivated as midwives are to provide good care, not insurmountable for these folks. I am sure they turn out wonderful midwives from all walks from this school. Their reputation is sound. Last I heard, however, they did require "some" experience as a nurse, first. If I am wrong, correct me.

No matter, I wish all aspiring midwives the best of luck in their pursuits. We need more of you! I wish we saw more of them here at these boards posting their experiences and opinions!

[fergus51]

I have only heard good things about this school. I am seriously considering saving up some money and applying some day

As far as the CNM vs direct entry midwives.... There is room for both and I see no reason to dredge up conflict here. Personally I would use a CNM based on my experiences with them, but I can understand why someone else may prefer a direct entry midwife and say more power to them. The important thing is supporting women in the choices that they make for themselves.

OT, but I hate when people say nurses are "stuck in the medical model". It's a disrespectful generalization and ignores the fact that nursing has its own perspective. I'm not the MD's handmaiden.

[SmilingBluEyes]

Originally Posted by fergus51

I
OT, but I hate when people say nurses are "stuck in the medical model". It's a disrespectful generalization and ignores the fact that nursing has its own perspective. I'm not the MD's handmaiden.

this is what I take issue with, as well. It insults all of us who chose to be nurses and are proud of our choice. Thank you. We all need to be mindful to whom we are speaking and who reads these things. there is no need to insult an entire profession of people in stating what we feel. Thank you fergus.