[Ginapixi]

thanks! your point of view makes perfect sense! on the other hand we do live in a society where pain killers almost belong into the 4 food groups and people who avoid pain living - at least physical pain- do not know how to deal with pain in dying and do not want to see their loved ones in pain either. now i have to actually read the whole article out of curiosity... all i wanted was an answer to : can Roxanol be given via nebulizer? ..... look where i got stuck

[req_read]

Leslie…

Nice hat!

I was much impressed with your last post… to the point where I was loathe to add another as it might distract from yours. However, since someone else added a post departing from the subject at hand it seems prudent to recapture the thread.

I confess some degree of envy… of your ability to be as aware as you are of the spiritual essence of reality. For me, instances of awareness on that level pop up sporadically… although when it does, the effect is invariably profound.

While pondering these things this morning I decided to dig out my copy of “Down The Rabbit Hole” and re-listen to an interview with Andrew Newberg, MD – Director: Center For Spirituality And The NeuroScineces (I believe at the University of Pennsylvania.) The interview is fascinating but much too lengthy to post here (even for me.) However, you might appreciate a brief synopsis.

Doctor Newberg researches “mystical experiences” and contemplates the nature of reality. He reports that people who do have mystical experiences report them as seeming to be more real than experiences in the physical realm. He further states that he and his colleagues have concluded that the determination of how real an experience is comes down to how real it “feels” to the person having that experience. Again (interestingly enough) he reports that people who have mystical experiences consistently contend that those experiences, while not of this world so-to-speak, seem more real than this world. Dreaming, on the other hand, seems real while one is dreaming, but when one wakes up the dream seems less real than this world (the physical realm.) He concludes that the determination of relative reality then, is subjective.

I agree with you (Leslie) when you say, “…if anything, i find it comforting.” I too find it comforting… intensely comforting.

In general I also agree with your statement, “…if i go 'looking', i will not find.” That has been my experience as well. Consequently, I seldom go looking. I tend to equate “going looking” with something I heard many years ago (which I think came from somewhere in the Bible, I’m not sure) cautioning against “testing God.”

The one exception I have experienced personally are instances in which I was desperate and asked (perhaps I should say “begged”) for assistance. Qualitatively this sort of experience differs from an academic exercise of “going looking” or “testing,” however, it is an example of requesting assistance not of this world.

Example: When I was a young man and my son was about 4, he & I were home along one day. He was fooling around in the kitchen, sitting on a stool about 3 feet high. Suddenly he fell over backwards, hitting his head HARD on a linoleum floor. The sound was sickening… not to mention terrifying. I rushed over as he lay still on the floor and held his head between my hands. In a total panic and not knowing what else to do I simply asked for help from above (elsewhere, however you care to conceive of it.) Almost immediately I felt my hands burning. This horrified me even more! I thought, “It must be brain damage. His thermostat is shot and he’s overheating.” I jerked my hands away… and then he “came to.” Thankfully, he seemed to suffer no after effects.

Some time later, while listening to a radio interview with a woman who practiced “laying on of the hands,” the interviewer inquired how she knew when it was working. She replied that she could tell it was working when she felt heat.

Boing! The light went on.

Since then I have known, beyond all question, that “it” is there when and if I really need it… but it is not a toy for me to test or play with, and it is most certainly not a product of my volition.

I have had other experiences of this nature since, but they are few & far between. I seem to be stuck in consensus society’s description of reality more solidly than you (Leslie), even though a more essential or real level of reality breaks through from time to time. However, like Dr. Newberg describes, those glimpses into another reality do seem, upon reflection (even when I am not in them) more real than this (physical) world.

Also, my observations of dying people lead me to believe that dying process induces such mystical experiences… and I assume those mystical experiences are just as real for them as mine are for me. So when I have been asked (regarding things like dying people seeing & interacting with deceased loved ones) is that real? My response is a simple, “Yes… that is real.”

Any thoughts?

Michael

[Franemtnurse]

Mike,
I have had some personal experience with Leslie's care/input, and I have not ever had the pleasure of having a hospice nurse as good as she is. She is top notch. She has the knowledge of what meds are needed, and what else is needed like the sunglasses for her 6 yo patient. My hat will always be off to her for what she did for me. She's a definite activist for her patients.

[req_read]

Franemtnurse...

I don't doubt that one bit.

Michael

[earle58]

Originally Posted by req_read

Also, my observations of dying people lead me to believe that dying process induces such mystical experiences… and I assume those mystical experiences are just as real for them as mine are for me. So when I have been asked (regarding things like dying people seeing & interacting with deceased loved ones) is that real? My response is a simple, “Yes… that is real.”

Any thoughts?

Michael

newberg's conclusion of our realities being purely subjective, is right-on target.
there is little i can truly relate to on this earth.
but his summary, truly resonates.
for yrs, i wondered why my relationships w/animals and young children, were much more satisfying to me, than those i had (or hadn't) w/my peers.
i have finally concluded, that vulnerability is a highly attractive quality.
for it represents an innocence that albeit, assailable, still remains raw, primal and susceptible.
it is a quality i instinctively want to embrace and protect.
conversely, being forewarned is being forearmed, inhibiting qualitative interaction.
and so, being 'spiritual' is certainly not an enviable state to live in.
of course, being the loner that i am, is much more conducive to a soulful existence.
(something happened, and my post got posted, so i am now editing)
but living on a planet where one's existence is dependent on fellowship, i find myself terribly out of place.
i will risk publicly stating, that i have never 'belonged' here on earth.
have always felt a misfit.
it has nothing to do w/not being popular, confident or shy.
i just cannot relate to people as a whole.
and so, working w/the dying, has enabled me to expound on highly enriching, spiritual interaction.
hospice nurses, are probably the most valued by their pts, compared w/other specialties.
but when i tell you that i click with these people, that i can feel, am sensitized to all they endure, it is where i belong.
for it is not based on verbal communication, but the senses (for both parties) are at the height of awareness.

if you have noticed, michael, that i generally do not respond in detail, to your posts.
God, while blessing me with much, did not provide me w/the gift of thinking, analyzing.
for me, everything is about being.
i do not even dare explore the unknown of mystical existences, fearing i will no longer be 'vulnerable'.
i would just prefer to be.

and if anyone understands anything i'm saying, maybe i'm not so alone.
ha!

good day.

leslie

[req_read]

Leslie…

I not only understand, I empathize.

I have heard it said that we are in this world but not of this world. For many that is something to think about… to ponder. For a few it is obvious, sometimes painfully so.

Children, before they are socialized; i.e. before they have constructed the social mask they will wear throughout adulthood, are themselves… no put on, no pretense. Dying people’s masks get stripped away by dying process itself, revealing the real person who has been hiding behind the mask. So these two groups have a lot in common. They are who they are… with a minimum of affectation or deceit. That is why it can be more refreshing to hang out with dying people than with living people (or not-yet-dying people.) Kids and dying people are real. The not-yet-dying are, in Shakespearean terms, actors on a stage.

Analytical thinking is my department (or curse.) Yours seems to be feeling and knowing directly.

Years ago I was sitting, thinking… lost in deep thought… when I suddenly realized I was not thinking in words, but rather, in concepts. Words are an artifact. Some concrete thinkers have difficulty understanding or accepting the idea of metaphor… without ever realizing that ALL language is metaphor. In computer terms language is rather like the old Windows 95 operating system… one system (Windows) built on top of and operating through a secondary system (DOS.) Very inefficient!

We like to think that we (humans) are especially intelligent because we have learned to communicate via language. Actually, when not in the physical realm, we communicate telepathically… directly… conceptually… no language necessary. We like to think we invented language so we could communicate better. It would probably be more accurate to say that we invented language so we can lie. When we ask someone how they are feeling and they say, “Fine,” we take them at their “word.” But if we look them in the eye we may feel they are hurting.

Lying isn’t all bad though… we aren’t total jerks. It may, in one of its forms, actually be involved in creative process. But that is another story… the idea or concept for which may take some time to translate into language.

For me, the most comforting thing about mystical experience is that afterwards I usually have an overwhelming sense of, “I am not alone.” It is not unusual to simply fall down weeping at the overwhelming power of that realization.

The Greeks had words for the will to live and the will to die… Eros & Thanatos. Both are powerful motivators.

I have come to view Eros (will to live) with ego… the illusion of being separate from (God, Goddess, All That Is.) It revels in its freedom and independence and is an incredibly powerful motivator. When we are dying it bites us in the bum. At some point during that process we are horrified at the possibility of losing our individuality and fall into an absolute panic.

But at some point the will to die takes over; i.e. the will to reunite, to come in out of the cold, to go home. It is the intense longing to not be alone any more.

Michael

[sharona97]

Originally Posted by earle58

newberg's conclusion of our realities being purely subjective, is right-on target.
there is little i can truly relate to on this earth.
but his summary, truly resonates.
for yrs, i wondered why my relationships w/animals and young children, were much more satisfying to me, than those i had (or hadn't) w/my peers.
i have finally concluded, that vulnerability is a highly attractive quality.
for it represents an innocence that albeit, assailable, still remains raw, primal and susceptible.
it is a quality i instinctively want to embrace and protect.
conversely, being forewarned is being forearmed, inhibiting qualitative interaction.
and so, being 'spiritual' is certainly not an enviable state to live in.
of course, being the loner that i am, is much more conducive to a soulful existence.
(something happened, and my post got posted, so i am now editing)
but living on a planet where one's existence is dependent on fellowship, i find myself terribly out of place.
i will risk publicly stating, that i have never 'belonged' here on earth.
have always felt a misfit.
it has nothing to do w/not being popular, confident or shy.
i just cannot relate to people as a whole.
and so, working w/the dying, has enabled me to expound on highly enriching, spiritual interaction.
hospice nurses, are probably the most valued by their pts, compared w/other specialties.
but when i tell you that i click with these people, that i can feel, am sensitized to all they endure, it is where i belong.
for it is not based on verbal communication, but the senses (for both parties) are at the height of awareness.

if you have noticed, michael, that i generally do not respond in detail, to your posts.
God, while blessing me with much, did not provide me w/the gift of thinking, analyzing.
for me, everything is about being.
i do not even dare explore the unknown of mystical existences, fearing i will no longer be 'vulnerable'.
i would just prefer to be.

and if anyone understands anything i'm saying, maybe i'm not so alone.
ha!

good day.

leslie

Vulnerability is an attractive quality is so true and I totally understand your thought on that and I believe in it. I thought I was the only one! Vulnerability is not martyerdom, a bad thing, it is rather who "you" are. Thanks for sharing that. You are not alone in my book!

[sharona97]

So perfectly said and underdstood Michael. God had blessed me with tears and I am living prove of falling over due to the powerful feelings I recognize and feel and I let the tears flow, for healing or for others in their healing. In my current situation knowing a dying person will then "come back home" as you stated just blows me away. I'm really not losing it, I'm observing and living the situation. Thank you.

[earle58]

Originally Posted by req_read

It would probably be more accurate to say that we invented language so we can lie. When we ask someone how they are feeling and they say, “Fine,” we take them at their “word.” But if we look them in the eye we may feel they are hurting.

ah....
truly, a thorn on my side.
hence, the reason why i do not use that ubiquitous phrase.

as it pertains to nursing, it bothers me when we ask if a pt is in pain and the pt says no.
and so, we write in our notes, "pt denies pain".
and that's the end of our assessment.
nevermind the elevated vs, the grimacing, the guarding, the hesitation, the lack of eye contact, etc.
"pt denies" is sufficient.
and we go on w/our day, as they go on w/their pain.

i'm sure you've heard me state more than once, that words are wasteful.
this is precisely why i say this.
for the most part, it is all a sham.
if one wants to have meaningful conversation, sit w/a child, the dying, a crochety elderly.... there we find substance: not always tangible, but always convicted.
otherwise, i will continue to revel in my solitude, and still, i am never alone.

this is a conversation i could probably ramble on about.
but alas, i must iron my clothes for work tonight.
i appreciate your empathy, sharona and michael.
i 'feel' that you both get it.

with love and appreciation,

leslie

[Allow Mystery]

Well, finally, something I can relate to, maybe that lightbulb is
getting brighter. Thank you Leslie for sharing your vulnerbility, we
are all vulnerable but don't want to share or lie about.
I've always been drawn and able to relate to the 'mentally retarded',
or what we now refer to as "disabled" or "handicapped". Pure innocence, and simplicity, and no pretense. I often wonder who
are really the 'retarded' ones.
And this is probably why I've been drawn to Hospice and relating
to the dying individual, because I find that the dying individual will
usually become innocent, simple and unpretentious, qualities I may endure.
God bless!

Michael, after responding mostly to what Leslie shared, I reread your
posting and realized I simply modified my experience with your analytical thoughts, I didn't mean to steal or plagiarize. Take care!