[bangwa]

For many years to come, nursing will remain an underpaid profession because of this type of debates. Very soon hospitals will start linking CRNAs and ICU experience and that will drive the CRNA salary scale. Then the next thing will be unions and so on. For all those CRNA's out there, can you kindly give us an honost assessment of the similarities between ICU RN and CRNA. I know both of them work to maintain the patients hemodynamics such as BP, HR, and airway.
I think CRNAs should be working to close the gap they have with Anesthesiologists in terms of compensation and Practice Acts. Instead of fighting to separate different levels of nurses. Until we rise above these minor arguments nursing will remain unrecognized.
Do you know the background of Physician Assistant-Anesthetist? I guess they make nearly as much as CRNAs and do the same work. Oh did I mention that they have zero ICU experience?

[jjjoy]

Originally Posted by bangwa

Do you know the background of Physician Assistant-Anesthetist? I guess they make nearly as much as CRNAs and do the same work. Oh did I mention that they have zero ICU experience?

Not all BSN programs require the same high level of science courses that PA programs do. I thought PA programs also taught the pathophys & pharmacology more in depth than nursing programs. Some nursing students will make the effort to learn more than the minimum for nursing school, but I don't think most BSN curriculums offer the same level of depth as PA programs. I'd think that would be one of the main reasons for requiring ICU experience. By working ICU awhile where they work closely with very sick patients, monitoring and treating them minute by minute, nurses can show that they have a more in depth understanding about human physiology in crisis than is shown by just having graduated from nursing school.

[nurselizk]

Neurogeek, I'm not suggesting for a moment that my critical care experience was not helpful. Just that there is so much more to everything that we could have managed patients much better if we'd known 'the rest of the story' that anesthesia school provides. And that there's a queen bee attitude in nursing that causes SOME nurses to look down on others and want to manipulate them, all out the misguided notion that they somehow know all as experienced nurses. You'll understand better what I mean about the experience when you start school. In the ICU, I sought out every learning experience, constantly took the sickest patients I could, and read about the pathophys and treatment every day when I got home. Yet I have learned more in 2 months of anesthesia school than I did in 2 yrs in the ICU. And, because backgrounds of anesthesia students vary, we are being taught much of what we were assumed to know coming in, just to make sure everyone knows it.

[Biotechnology]

Originally Posted by jjjoy

Not all BSN programs require the same high level of science courses that PA programs do. I thought PA programs also taught the pathophys & pharmacology more in depth than nursing programs. Some nursing students will make the effort to learn more than the minimum for nursing school, but I don't think most BSN curriculums offer the same level of depth as PA programs. I'd think that would be one of the main reasons for requiring ICU experience. By working ICU awhile where they work closely with very sick patients, monitoring and treating them minute by minute, nurses can show that they have a more in depth understanding about human physiology in crisis than is shown by just having graduated from nursing school.

Bangwa is talking about Anesthesiologist Assistants, also known as Physician Assistant type B....They are master degree anesthetists also and there programs do not require ICU experience....

[jjjoy]

Originally Posted by Biotechnology

Bangwa is talking about Anesthesiologist Assistants, also known as Physician Assistant type B....They are master degree anesthetists also and there programs do not require ICU experience....

According to the American Society of Anesthesiologists in regard to Anesthesiology Assistants: "qualifying student applicants must possess a baccalaureate degree and complete all of the premedical course work required by the typical American medical school. " Many BSN programs do not require the same level of prerequisite coursework that medical schools do. I do see that entering AA students wouldn't necessarily have any background in pathophys or pharmacology, but they would have a very strong math and science foundation that BSN graduates may or may not have. ICU/ED experience, then, might serve as a proxy for the math and science that many RNs to date haven't covered. Given that, though, I guess I can see why if a BSN grad DOES have the same strong math/science background of a typical pre-med student, that a CRNA program might make an exception for them.

I do have to wonder, though, as more and more look to go directly to advanced practice nursing roles such as CRNA and NP, especially with the development of direct-entry advanced practice programs and accelerated BSN programs, if the "foundation" of nursing education (currently what's required for RN licensure) is anything much more than a hoop to jump through in order to get on with learning with the "real" stuff in a CRNA or NP program. If CRNAs and NPs don't need RN experience and in fact learn all they need to know in their program, why bother with RN training at all? I'm not being facetious, either. I personally found my RN training frustratingly shallow and felt that NCLEX-style questions test one's test-taking skills, not health related knowledge.

[bangwa]

That's very true. I was inquiring about ICU experience requirement for Anesthesiologist Assistants.
PAs may have a lot of Patho Phys, and Anatomy, but remember in the CRNA programs you have to do Advanced Patho Phys, Pharm, and other advanced Science courses. Most Mastered prepared Anesthesiologist Assistants have BS in Biology. That means they have more human biology, but nurses with BSN have human biology (maybe not the same level) and more Pharmacology, in addition to a better appreciation of the holistic human being.

[jjjoy]

I was originally a bio major and there were significant differences in the level of science and math required for bio majors and nursing majors. There is a vast difference between the level of content covered in a one term lower division intro to o. chem and intro to micro vs. upper division o chem and micro for bio majors. Pre-med students must also take calculus and physics. Most nursing schools don't require beyond college algebra. The pharmacology course I took in nursing school was more about recognizing a wide assortment of drugs and their basic drug categories with a one or two sentence explanation of the mechanism of action and pot'l side effects - not much more depth than that.

The math/science foundation between a pre-med/bio major and a nursing school graduate who took only the required courses is quite different and I don't know if most nursing school graduates can appreciate that without having taken a those other classes. But I'll bet you start to appreciate it REAL quickly once you start a CRNA program!

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying nursing students aren't capable of that higher level coursework, just that most nursing programs (RN-level, anyway) don't REQUIRE the same degree of depth in their prequisites nor do they generally TEACH to the same degree of depth. Otherwise, it WOULD take much longer to graduate! And nursing school DOES emphasize care of the whole person across the life span.)

Edited by traumarus for clarity. - thanks! I realized some mistakes and then couldn't edit them right away!

[neurogeek]

Originally Posted by nurselizk

Neurogeek, I'm not suggesting for a moment that my critical care experience was not helpful. Just that there is so much more to everything that we could have managed patients much better if we'd known 'the rest of the story' that anesthesia school provides. And that there's a queen bee attitude in nursing that causes SOME nurses to look down on others and want to manipulate them, all out the misguided notion that they somehow know all as experienced nurses. You'll understand better what I mean about the experience when you start school. In the ICU, I sought out every learning experience, constantly took the sickest patients I could, and read about the pathophys and treatment every day when I got home. Yet I have learned more in 2 months of anesthesia school than I did in 2 yrs in the ICU. And, because backgrounds of anesthesia students vary, we are being taught much of what we were assumed to know coming in, just to make sure everyone knows it.

I appreciate your input. Don't worry...I realize that I don't know ANYTHING compared to what I'm about to learn. A year ago I thought I wanted to be a CRNA, but all I knew of it was what I learned from the ICU side. So...I spent several months, 1 12-hour shift a week in the OR glued to the side of a CRNA at the level I trauma center where I worked. I realized very quickly that I really had no CLUE what being a CRNA was really all about until I started following them. It was so much more intense & wonderful than I ever imagined. I go into this knowing that I've been very humbled by that experience, and I go with an open mind. I always appreciate input from seasoned students who've walked the walk. Thanks so much & I'll keep you posted on my progress!

[Hold'emRN]

Nurselizk,

You are soo right. Neuro will have a whole new perspective when she starts school! She has NO idea what she is about to get into. It is awesome, but you have to pay alot of dues! 7 days a week!