[wallalame]

Originally Posted by nursemike

I consider myself a Mary Wallstonecraft feminist: I believe the heart of feminism is a person's right to an equal opportunity to pursue the career of her/his choice and be treated equitably in the workplace, to live independantly and enjoy the same fundamental rights as anyone else. That includes the same rights to privacy as anyone else, and surely the right to be secure in one's person is about as fundamental as it gets...but: that right to privacy/comfort/security, important as it is, is not so sacrosanct that the rights of a whole class of society should be subverted, just to guard against the possibility that someone might feel nervous about asserting her right to request a female nurse if one is available.

Implications that x percentage of men are sex criminals, so all men are
x percent sex criminal, images of men breaking down doors and forcing themselves on helpless women, and the idea that women have been victims of discrimination, so now it's men's turn, may reflect a form of feminism, but in my not-so-humble opinion, it's a very sexist and devisive form....

...Rather, my experience has been that nearly every patient I've had who had modesty issues when we met was happy to let me provide whatever care she needed by the end of the shift, and some have said they would ask for a male nurse from now on. Mind you, I am not an exceptionally good nurse, or an unusually great guy. I'm a decent guy, and a decent nurse, and the patients who are exposed to me have the opportunity to learn that some--I would say most--male nurses are decent, caring people.

And the only way patients will ever learn that is by being exposed to male nurses...

Hi, nursemike.
It is true that there are many ideas of what feminism means and points of view within it. I am pleased to see that you label yourself a feminist, as many feminists do not believe a man can truly BE a feminist (only pro-feminist), a point that I do not necessarily agree with. Also, as I continue, I appreciate our differences of opinion on this topic.

To say that “that right to privacy/comfort/security, important as it is, is not so sacrosanct that the rights of a whole class of society should be subverted, just to guard against the possibility that someone might feel nervous about asserting her right to request a female nurse if one is available” is a very wordy and divisive way to confuse the context of the subject and the priority of the discussion (which should be the patient). But, I must say, I am impressed at your attempt.

I hope you do not resent me putting what you said more simply. Correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that a man’s (fundamental) work-place right to be a nurse on the OB floor takes priority over the fundamental right of the OB patient to privacy/comfort/security (important as it is).

Well, in response to that, I have to remind you that:

Men, who are nurses, who want to work on the OB floor compared to the proportion of female patients who must undergo the frightening and beautiful and miraculous act of child-birth is relatively low and much more inconsistent.

THAT is weighing factor to help us evaluate the “sacrosanticity” of one right verses another.

You cannot rightfully accuse me of implying that “x percentage of men are sex criminals, so all men are x percent sex criminal” as I have clearly stated otherwise. If that were true, men would be banned from nursing altogether. As for actual data, it is estimated that one in three women have experienced sexual abuse in her life-time, many who have experienced it repeatedly. I have heard varying results as to how this translates in male sex-offender-ratio, as many sex crimes remain unreported and many sex-offenders walk free, having not a smudge on their criminal records for unreported crimes.

On that note, do you think that men in nursing are generally prepared for working on a floor where one in three people will have been sexually abused at some point in her life (maybe even currently)? Just as some think that women are “maternal” by nature, many feel that they are also more “in-tune” with these sorts of issues. Even if a female nurse is oblivious to this epidemic, any unstable patient that comes through the OB is going to feel that her time in the OB was a safe time.

“Images of men breaking down doors and forcing themselves on helpless women,” is something you men need to take seriously. There is a door, a barrier that men just need to respect. This isn’t equal-opportunity Wal-Mart, guys. This is professional and highly sensitive to common sense and “grey areas.”

That said, anyone in nursing deals with these kinds of grey areas all the time and you have successfully gained the trust of most, if not all, of your patients. Sometimes you employ the help of the opposite gender, sometimes they employ you. You have managed that successfully and acknowledged the sensitivity. Therefore, we can not, responsibly, purposefully ignore the obvious boundaries of the OB. As you deal with grey areas all the time, you know very well that these boundaries exist for a reason.

[jbeau]

wallalame, I think you are missing the one point we're trying to drive home.

We don't think that women should be FORCED to have a male nurse on an OB floor. We are saying that men should not be BANNED from working there. There is a huge difference there.

[wallalame]

Originally Posted by jbeau

If this were about 90% of men refusing to have a female nurse, women would be UP IN ARMS. Same thing goes for race, class, etc. The women in this thread are only fine with it because they aren't being actively discriminated against.

Should a patient be able to request a different nurse than me because I am gay? Give me a break.

jbeau, I think I catch the point. I think you are dodging it. According to this, you seem to think that people should not be allowed to request or refuse nurses...

[nursemike]

Originally Posted by wallalame

Hi, nursemike.
It is true that there are many ideas of what feminism means and points of view within it. I am pleased to see that you label yourself a feminist, as many feminists do not believe a man can truly BE a feminist (only pro-feminist), a point that I do not necessarily agree with. Also, as I continue, I appreciate our differences of opinion on this topic.

To say that “that right to privacy/comfort/security, important as it is, is not so sacrosanct that the rights of a whole class of society should be subverted, just to guard against the possibility that someone might feel nervous about asserting her right to request a female nurse if one is available” is a very wordy and divisive way to confuse the context of the subject and the priority of the discussion (which should be the patient). But, I must say, I am impressed at your attempt.

I hope you do not resent me putting what you said more simply. Correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that a man’s (fundamental) work-place right to be a nurse on the OB floor takes priority over the fundamental right of the OB patient to privacy/comfort/security (important as it is).

Well, in response to that, I have to remind you that:

Men, who are nurses, who want to work on the OB floor compared to the proportion of female patients who must undergo the frightening and beautiful and miraculous act of child-birth is relatively low and much more inconsistent.

THAT is weighing factor to help us evaluate the “sacrosanticity” of one right verses another.

You cannot rightfully accuse me of implying that “x percentage of men are sex criminals, so all men are x percent sex criminal” as I have clearly stated otherwise. If that were true, men would be banned from nursing altogether. As for actual data, it is estimated that one in three women have experienced sexual abuse in her life-time, many who have experienced it repeatedly. I have heard varying results as to how this translates in male sex-offender-ratio, as many sex crimes remain unreported and many sex-offenders walk free, having not a smudge on their criminal records for unreported crimes.

On that note, do you think that men in nursing are generally prepared for working on a floor where one in three people will have been sexually abused at some point in her life (maybe even currently)? Just as some think that women are “maternal” by nature, many feel that they are also more “in-tune” with these sorts of issues. Even if a female nurse is oblivious to this epidemic, any unstable patient that comes through the OB is going to feel that her time in the OB was a safe time.

“Images of men breaking down doors and forcing themselves on helpless women,” is something you men need to take seriously. There is a door, a barrier that men just need to respect. This isn’t equal-opportunity Wal-Mart, guys. This is professional and highly sensitive to common sense and “grey areas.”

That said, anyone in nursing deals with these kinds of grey areas all the time and you have successfully gained the trust of most, if not all, of your patients. Sometimes you employ the help of the opposite gender, sometimes they employ you. You have managed that successfully and acknowledged the sensitivity. Therefore, we can not, responsibly, purposefully ignore the obvious boundaries of the OB. As you deal with grey areas all the time, you know very well that these boundaries exist for a reason.

Excuse me if I was verbose. I don't resent your attempt to paraphrase my point, but your interpretation isn't entirely correct. I am not saying a patient should have to accept a male nurse if she is uncomfortable. At facilities that discriminate, all men are being denied the opportunity to care for any OB patients, including those who would be content to have them, to shield some women from even the possibility of being assigned a male nurse and having to refuse him.

After reflection, I also stand by my comment about the implicit partial guilt of all men for sex crimes. Disclaimers that not all men are like that seem a bit hollow alongside repeated references to male perversion and assertions that women are virtually immune to such behaviors. Sexual abuse by females appears less common, but is not unheard of, and may well be even more underreported than sexual abuse by males. Then, too, there are other forms of patient abuse than sexual. Hypothetically, if it were shown that women were statistically more likely to abduct newborns than men are, how many here would argue that all women should be banned from nurseries?

Finally, no, this very definitely isn't Wal-Mart, and the men we are talking about aren't stock boys or checkout clerks. We are highly trained professionals, dedicated to the same standard of care as our female colleagues. I can't speak for all male nurses, but I know that I and others have already confronted negative stereotypes and been willing to overcome them in my desire to be a nurse. And, sad but true, it seems to me that there's a lot more resistance to male nurses from female nurses than from female patients--though in neither case do I find it very widespread.

[jbeau]

And, sad but true, it seems to me that there's a lot more resistance to male nurses from female nurses than from female patients--though in neither case do I find it very widespread.

Exactly.

And wallalame, the point I was raising in my post that you quoted is that if you allow gender discrimination, then WHAT OTHER TYPES of discrimination are ok?

If you think it is perfectly normal for a woman to refuse a male nurse, than why can't a homophobe refuse a gay nurse? Why can't a white supremacist refuse a black nurse? In these instances, they are obviously disgusted by the nurse, so what makes it right in THESE instances to say that?

Discrimination is discrimination. And luckily for me, most women do not share the view of the nurses here.

[wallalame]

nursemike, that is horrible that you have to deal with a lot of negative stereotypes. I actually did not know that anyone had a problem with male nurses until recently, nor did I know that they were scarce. I hope you do not consider my opinions about the OB floor to be saying anything bad about men in nursing. I really hope you don't feel that way, because I really don't mean it that way. This is a very narrow subject to say the least.

You know, I think you are really on to something when you said "stating her preference in advance." Hospitals should really try that. "Check this box if you prefer NOT to have a male nurse who will care for you during your stay. Check this box if you have no preference." Problem solved. Even if they don't have a man on the floor, the hospital could still ask the patient. I think we can all agree that a woman (or girl's) first experience with a male nurse does not need come on as a surprise while she is on THAT floor. Plus, for the male nurse, it doesn't seem like it would be a pleasant experience to have to "get someone used to it" at such an...intimate time, ahem.

But for those who have no preference, both the nurse and the patient can feel comfortable.

But yeah, I looked it up and between 1983 and 1995, the FBI documented 145 infant abductions. While women MAY be more likely to commit infant abduction, in the US, men account for 90% of people charged in cases of aggravated assault, murder and manslaughter. Check out these sites for some government stats. It also tells you wich gender does what and how often.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/criminal/clu1102/clutypi.htm

As for any of this meaning that most men contain an element of "criminal" is not something that I think at all. Really, I am a very intelligent person. Remember, this is a very narrow (and touchy) issue. But I do carry pepper spray at night (as a medical professional, I think you would consider that healthy of me) and I'm not afraid of any woman and I don't talk to men I don't know (except for right now, I guess). And trust me, I would never leave my kids with ANYbody I don't know - unless I am on the OB floor.
.......

And jbeau, you really do keep contradicting yourself here. Do you think patients have the right to refuse you because you have a penis or not? Does that apply to OB patients? Geez, who cares if you're gay, I doubt it will matter. I wouldn't even care if my female nurse was gay, even on OB. Even homophobes have to be pretty phobic to care about their nurses' orientation to the point that they'd refuse you. Most people will LOVE you. That will make up for the inconvenience you MIGHT face.

[wallalame]

But no, I would not want any man, even a gay man, being my nurse on OB.

[nursemike]

Having slept on it, I have to concede there is a difference between suggesting that a lot of men are perverts and stating that a lot of female patients may perceive men as perverts. This was actually discussed at some length on the Great Double Standard thread. I hope the link above will direct anyone there who is interested. The focus, there, was more whether med/surg type pts should have the right to refuse a male nurse (as I recall). I believe they do, within reason. I see the issue here, though, as whether the manager of an OB unit has the right to refuse all male nurses for all patients, pre-emptorily, and that, I believe is discrimination.

Actually, I would be willing to accept that discrimination if it were the case that male nurses had been tried on the unit and such a high proportion of patients had refused him that the unit couldn't operate with reasonable efficiency. Certainly, I couldn't tell a female OB nurse, "If you'll look after my female pts' personal needs, I'll take care of your males." But I do think it could be workable--and evidently it does work, in some facilities--for male nurses to care for those OB patients who don't object.

I would imagine that male nurses who want to work in OB would be more apt to subscribe to the view that pregnant women are beautiful than the "screaming" image. I doubt, though, that many (or any) of them are looking to get a free peek. Throughout history, there probably have been a few nurses, of either gender, who failed to distinguish between a professional, nurse-patient relationship and a sexual one. But I'm sure that's very much the exception. I recall assisting an aide with a bath on a comatose patient who, if I'm honest, would probably have turned my head if she were at the beach, in a bikini. But this patient wasn't nude, she was naked. Helpless and vulnerable isn't sexy--and I suspect the aide may have felt a little frustrated that I was so insistent on giving a "nursing school bath," where the only part exposed is the part you're washing. But at a time like that, the instinct to protect is uppermost. My experience with women who aren't in single digits on the Glasgow Scale has been that they pretty quickly pick up that I'm there to protect and care for them, and we get along just fine.

[Elvish]

Originally Posted by jbeau

We don't think that women should be FORCED to have a male nurse on an OB floor. We are saying that men should not be BANNED from working there. There is a huge difference there.

yes, Yes, YES, YES!!!!!

I would absolutely welcome a male nurse on my mother/baby floor, or as a patient in labor.

On a semi-related topic, there is a male NICU nurse at my hospital who is absolutely, hands-down one of the best nurses I've ever met. I would want him to be my sick baby's nurse any day/night of the week, even if it means he was at the delivery & saw me naked pushing said baby out.

[jbeau]

And jbeau, you really do keep contradicting yourself here. Do you think patients have the right to refuse you because you have a penis or not? Does that apply to OB patients? Geez, who cares if you're gay, I doubt it will matter. I wouldn't even care if my female nurse was gay, even on OB. Even homophobes have to be pretty phobic to care about their nurses' orientation to the point that they'd refuse you. Most people will LOVE you. That will make up for the inconvenience you MIGHT face.

Personally, I think it's dumb to refuse care from someone based on their gender. When I was assigned a female doc to do my physical, I still dropped trou and let her do her thing to check for a hernia. When she needed to do a rectal exam, I turned around and let her do it. Would I have preferred a male? Yes. But I don't view ANYONE in the health field doing their job as a pervert.

Should they have the right to refuse? Sure. But should hospitals ban men from being on the OB floor? NO NO NO. This is the point I am making.

And I would like the women here to justify how it is okay to discriminate based on gender but not for race/sexual orientation/etc.

Also, say I am hospitalized for pnuemonia. Do I have the right to refuse a female nurse because I find them incompetent?