[twotrees2]

Originally Posted by KeithEMU

I would believe it is possible for men to move up in many areas to management positions in nursing faster. Don't have stats to support that though. There are numerous treads that show men are normally treated with more respect IN GENERAL by doctors and other nurses. It's not all bad in other words.

There are several issues I see here though. Patients who are uncomfortable with being cared for by a male I can deal with fine. They should be comfortable, and we need to respect that.

The real issue that should be resolved FIRST is a management and administration view that needs that causes dangerous inequality. This is that when an allegation is made of sexual abuse, MEN get suspended with out pay, or fired, or looked at as a major liability, immediately. This affects their careers sometimes permanently, WHEN THEY DID NOTHING WRONG and the case is unfounded! Female nurses are often treated as the victims if they are reported. Yes an investigation is done, but many of them keep working and being paid. If the charge is unfounded they can go on with normally no ill effects. The hospital will stand behind the woman and crucify the man. This is where the true inequality lies.

in our facility ANY person charged with ANY abuse is lead out of the building immediately wthout pay until the investigation is done. regardless of gender - we have had some come back they did what they were blamed for and fired aAND reported to the proper autorities and licensing bueres and the others come back with apologies - personally i think they shoudl then be reimberesed for lost wages but that aint gonna happen but i woudl rather have them sent home and it investigated and found not guilty then take the chance someone was actually doingit and would again before they had a chance to be let go.

[nursemike]

I don't want to duplicate post, but in a thread on OB clinicals I thought of a point relevant to this thread. Strange, but I just realized I've been doing this, and since it almost seems contrary to everything I've been taught, I wanted to add it here.

To wit: Nurses are people. Patients are people. We are professionals, it's true, but we're still people, and I don't see anything wrong with acting like people. A lot of the time, approaching a female patient, I frankly admit that this can seem a little embarassing or uncomfortable, then explain how I intend to minimize it--keep everything covered that doesn't need exposed, etc. In general, patients have been very willing to go along with this. Many older ladies, who've been hospitalized on multiple occassions, simply say don't worry about it, they're long past being modest, but I think most still appreciate the consideration. With younger patients, a simple warning of what's to be done, and why, seems to ease the situation a bit.

I also try to apply a little common sense. During clinicals, I learned the hard way on and older, obese lady that the heart isn't as affected by gravity as the breast is, so that her apical pulse was best appreciated above the breast, rather than below. Now, this isn't as anatomically true of some adolescent patients I've had at work, but a.) these were not cardiac pts and b.) their heart sounds were nice and strong, so I didn't feel it was strictly necessary to auscultate below the breast. So I wasn't right at the apex. So what? Nor did I assess the butt of a five-year-old who cried when I asked her name. She was there less than a week. Her Braden score was 46, out of a possible 23. Bed-mobility was as good as it can be without a prehensile tail. Explained to her mother that I saw little risk of pressure ulcers--she laughed and agreed.

I've even been known to extend this honesty to male pts--I need to put this tube through your urethra. Neither of us is going to enjoy it, but do tell me if it's very painful...


I think it's entirely possible to be professional and human at the same time, and a lot of times it seems to get the patient on your side.

[Corvette Guy]

Originally Posted by nursemike

I don't want to duplicate post, but in a thread on OB clinicals I thought of a point relevant to this thread. Strange, but I just realized I've been doing this, and since it almost seems contrary to everything I've been taught, I wanted to add it here.

To wit: Nurses are people. Patients are people. We are professionals, it's true, but we're still people, and I don't see anything wrong with acting like people. A lot of the time, approaching a female patient, I frankly admit that this can seem a little embarassing or uncomfortable, then explain how I intend to minimize it--keep everything covered that doesn't need exposed, etc. In general, patients have been very willing to go along with this. Many older ladies, who've been hospitalized on multiple occassions, simply say don't worry about it, they're long past being modest, but I think most still appreciate the consideration. With younger patients, a simple warning of what's to be done, and why, seems to ease the situation a bit.

I also try to apply a little common sense. During clinicals, I learned the hard way on and older, obese lady that the heart isn't as affected by gravity as the breast is, so that her apical pulse was best appreciated above the breast, rather than below. Now, this isn't as anatomically true of some adolescent patients I've had at work, but a.) these were not cardiac pts and b.) their heart sounds were nice and strong, so I didn't feel it was strictly necessary to auscultate below the breast. So I wasn't right at the apex. So what? Nor did I assess the butt of a five-year-old who cried when I asked her name. She was there less than a week. Her Braden score was 46, out of a possible 23. Bed-mobility was as good as it can be without a prehensile tail. Explained to her mother that I saw little risk of pressure ulcers--she laughed and agreed.

I've even been known to extend this honesty to male pts--I need to put this tube through your urethra. Neither of us is going to enjoy it, but do tell me if it's very painful...


I think it's entirely possible to be professional and human at the same time, and a lot of times it seems to get the patient on your side.

Bottom line, explain to the patient what needs to be done, why it needs to be done, then professionally ... git-r-done.

[Roy Fokker]

Originally Posted by nursemike

I think it's entirely possible to be professional and human at the same time, and a lot of times it seems to get the patient on your side.

Originally Posted by Corvette Guy

Bottom line, explain to the patient what needs to be done, why it needs to be done, then professionally ... git-r-done.

I agree

[JessicRN]

I work in the ED and we have 4 male nurses none of whom do ECG's catheterizations and pelvic exams or do any personnel hygiene on ANY women this is not in their contract they just decided this and everyone followed. I have yet to hear a patient refuse the male nurse either here. I do not mind helping out, but when I am the only female this gets very annoying. Cathing a male is easy and cleaning there genatalia is no big deal but I have come across a few rambunctious males mostly the older ones and the drunks. so do not perform anything extremely personal without a witness either on anyone either. But I have used a witness of the same sex usually an aid to perform these tasks. I have gone to these same nurses and asked them to tend to my males private needs and surprisingly these male nurses are just as squeemish about cathing and cleaning males as they are about females imagine that.
Lets face it, cathing a male is easy,cathing a female is not. Doing catheterizatations and cleaning up the drunk, obese and unwashed violent people are very unpleasant tasks, tasks I do not want to do voluntarily. (The ED I work in is a public health one so about 90% fit this mold mostly the unwashed ) so be expected to do them as a matter of course just because they are male is unfair. Why can't they do them and I assist or be in the room.
I am the only one at work who when approached by a male nurse to provide one of these tasks insist they help. (they take off on the other female nurses). They did not like it at first and I got alot of flack from my fellow female nurses but I stood my ground. I have to admit I can be bought though to do it with another aid like them getting me a coffee or taking the next nasty patient. (the violent overdose who needs charcoal or the homeless drunk who vomitted and urinated on himself). The other nurses see me doing this and they are very slowly seeing the light.
In my opinion if a male is sooooo afraid of being accused of doing a basic essential task and having a female witness present is not good enough and not thinking this is a huge favor to ask a female and thinking this is as it should be, you are in the wrong profession. Any adminitrator who condones this is also in the wrong.
Can someone show me where a male nurse was sued doing one of these tasks with a female present and the task was documented. If he documents well he is safe if he takes a witness he is safe. We live in a very litigious world now so who is to say a female does not sue another female for doing the same task. While it is not as likely why is that so absurd?. Just play it safe take a witness when doing any procedure on any patient, that is my motto

[nursemike]

Originally Posted by JessicRN

I work in the ED and we have 4 male nurses none of whom do ECG's catheterizations and pelvic exams or do any personnel hygiene on ANY women this is not in their contract they just decided this and everyone followed. I have yet to hear a patient refuse the male nurse either here. I do not mind helping out, but when I am the only female this gets very annoying. Cathing a male is easy and cleaning there genatalia is no big deal but I have come across a few rambunctious males mostly the older ones and the drunks. so do not perform anything extremely personal without a witness either on anyone either. But I have used a witness of the same sex usually an aid to perform these tasks. I have gone to these same nurses and asked them to tend to my males private needs and surprisingly these male nurses are just as squeemish about cathing and cleaning males as they are about females imagine that.
Lets face it, cathing a male is easy,cathing a female is not. Doing catheterizatations and cleaning up the drunk, obese and unwashed violent people are very unpleasant tasks, tasks I do not want to do voluntarily. (The ED I work in is a public health one so about 90% fit this mold mostly the unwashed ) so be expected to do them as a matter of course just because they are male is unfair. Why can't they do them and I assist or be in the room.
I am the only one at work who when approached by a male nurse to provide one of these tasks insist they help. (they take off on the other female nurses). They did not like it at first and I got alot of flack from my fellow female nurses but I stood my ground. I have to admit I can be bought though to do it with another aid like them getting me a coffee or taking the next nasty patient. (the violent overdose who needs charcoal or the homeless drunk who vomitted and urinated on himself). The other nurses see me doing this and they are very slowly seeing the light.
In my opinion if a male is sooooo afraid of being accused of doing a basic essential task and having a female witness present is not good enough and not thinking this is a huge favor to ask a female and thinking this is as it should be, you are in the wrong profession. Any adminitrator who condones this is also in the wrong.
Can someone show me where a male nurse was sued doing one of these tasks with a female present and the task was documented. If he documents well he is safe if he takes a witness he is safe. We live in a very litigious world now so who is to say a female does not sue another female for doing the same task. While it is not as likely why is that so absurd?. Just play it safe take a witness when doing any procedure on any patient, that is my motto

Sorry for your negative experience. I hope you've seen that this attitude is by no means universal. The approach you've taken seems like a good start, but I think the next step might be to offer to precept them on doing the procedures themselves. I agree that anyone unwilling to perform these tasks is in the wrong profession.

Is your supervisor aware of the situation? If so, and unwilling to correct it, I would think you could make the case that you're being subjected to a hostile work environment. Piling on extra work because you happen to be female is clearly discriminatory...

[mfdteacher]

I have to agree that litigation looms large over the males in nursing. I have witnessed quite a bit of inappropriate behavoir from female nurses and I've had my bottom patted more than once by my coworkers or heard comments directed at my anatomy or sex life. Doesn't bother me a bit, I know it's all in good fun butif I did anything like that, I'd be risking sexual harrassment penalties. When I was in school ( a state university) males were not taught to cath female patients ("you'll allways have someone to do that for you"). I was chewed out for taking my pants down to low for IM injection practice. I thought we were supposed to be professionals and perform any task or procedure without regard to gender, unfortunately that's not what we were taught. And how many of the female nurses ever uttered the famous line, " I think male nurses are great but I wouldn't want one taking care of me"? Now as an old man of fiftythree working in ER I wonder about the adolescent girls that I have to cath or assist in a gyn exam. From some, not all, I see some discomfort at the bearded guy doing these things to them. I've found the only way to get around it is to just be confident and assured in whatever you're doing and it generally goes okay.

[austinrnguy]

I am a male and will be graduating soon. One of my worst fears is being accused or suspected of improper procedures, and not realizing what I may, or may not, have done was incorrect. With law suites and greedy people there may be accusations that are not ligitimate. I don't want to be that sheep.

I enjoy helping people and making them feel better, physically and spiritualy. I am a big tough looking guy and I worry that I may be judged based on that. I like peds, but that is one of my fears, as well, with children. Parents look at me already dealing with their child, so I want to avoid any possiblity of having any problems.

[bigjay]

This is an interesting discussion and one I've had before. My response is different now than it would've been when I was less experienced in nursing.

Initially my response would've been that it's completely discriminatory to have me not do care or procedures because I'm a man. When I would run into these situations I took it quite personally and it really bothered me. I felt that it didn't matter what my sex was, a nurse is a nurse, right?

Now I realize that these are my feelings but those of my patients may be different and I need to respect them. Nursing is about trust and building relationships. It needs to come naturally and can't be forced. So if Mrs. X isn't comfortable with a man doing her cath, so be it. I happen to be a man as well as a nurse so me doing it isn't going to work. I'll just go and get a co-worker to do it and do them a favor at some point. If it's an issue with all her care, I'll ask my CN to do a swap. I don't take it personally anymore because it's not about me, it's about their beliefs and comfort level.

I find it doesn't come up very frequently now anyway. I'm always very professional and confidant in my approach so generally patients feel quite comfortable with me. That's the main thing. You'll get the vibe from those that aren't comfortable and that's when I ask. Otherwise I just explain what I'm going to do and go forward unless I get the feeling the patient or family is uncomfortable.

[Works2xs]

I think the dynamic of how patients react to nurses is well covered. Regardless of what the nurse might think is "right", patients have the right to exercise their own autonomy in whatever form they choose. I think that we, as nurses in general, respond to those requests with grace and acceptance.

Regarding the legal issues, if it is policy for one sex to have a chaperone for a procedure, it should be that way for all. Being on the wrong end of a lawsuit should be seen as an equal opportunity risk.

Where I think additional scrutiny/consideration should be applied is with respect to how nurses react to each other and how management responds to either sex. In my time as a student, I was on the receiving end of actions that struck me as odd. "Do you mind if a male nurse does xyz?" It certainly is a nice thing to ask, but shouldn't it also be the rule when a female nurse is going to do something with a male patient? And if it isn't necessary for one, it shouldn't be necessary for the other - regardless of whatever "trend" might be in vogue regarding sexual attitudes, likelihoods, or proclivities. If it is "good sense" to announce that male will be in attendance for some procedure involving a female patient, then the same announcement should be made for the converse. Why?

Because as more men enter the profession, the patients will be increasingly faced with a new (possibly) health care situation. If they have any level of doubt about how to act, what to expect, or what is acceptable, they will take their cues from their immediate environment. If the female nurses and managers act differently toward their male coworkers/staff, then the patients will begin to expect something different from male care givers. When my presence is given special notice (do you mind if a male does this) and then woman is just allowed to walk into any situation without prior notice, it telegraphs to the patient that something different is to be expected from the men in the profession.

With male representation as low as it is in nursing, having a male care giver can be a new experience. We, as a profession, will be setting the tone for how our patients will perceive what can be expected from men. Since part of the nursing role is that of educator, let's teach our patients by example. Let's set that tone by expecting the same level of professionalism, ability, and protection from unwarrented law suits, etc, regardless of chromosonal differences. Let's set the expectation amongst ourselves and we just might find patients taking their cues from us.