[dougRN2BE]

Originally Posted by Jasano

These are actually falsehoods that you're spouting. Dollar for dollar, women and men make the SAME amount of money. Hour for Hour women CHOOSE to work more part-time and therefore lose out on some of the career advancement. In fact, studies have shown that men and women MAKE PRECISELY THE SAME AMOUNT of $, when allowances are made for women who've chosen to stay at home with their families. Women who've chosen career over families, make the same dollar for dollar amounts.

Morever, women are earning considerably more university degrees than men, living considerably longer, and enjoying government quotas for jobs, education and promotion in a variety of fields. Even young boys are not immune to the discrimination and are doing much more poorly in language and reading skills than ever before, (in fact in terms of achievement in general) and are far more likely to flunk out at both the elementary and high school levels - these conditions the direct result of feminist changes to educational curriculum favouring young girls.
(oh and these statements are true north and south of the border strangely enough)

Now a few items which make this a personal issue for me (aside from the fact that I'm a male nurse).

#1. Before I knew what I wanted to do for a living, I thought about being a police officer and foolishly invested thousands of my own dollars in a Law and Security program. I thought at the time, well yes, there are quotas, but even if I can't get into policing, there are other avenues. WELL, one day, a representative from a major bank came into class to speak ONLY to the females of the class regarding a $50, 000. credit card investigation job.
Males taking law and security would not be eligible for the position because they were males. Bee in my bonet # 1.

#2. I later thought I would try my hand at automechanics (turns out I like cars, but not getting dirty), but anyway, my brother and I each paid over a $1000.00 tuition for the program. When we completed the program, we found that no one was taking apprentices - there were no girls in our program. Now before you get excited and go off on a feminist tirade, that's because there was a separate FEMALE ONLY program being run alongside ours wherein the women paid $0.00 for tuition, and recieved job placement assistance upon completion.

#3. I was in a government office, looking for jobs in nursing - I was working with several agencies, but because I was a man, was not being offered very many hours. In fact, applying to one agency I was told that I could not be given 30 hours a week, even though they had just finished telling me that their entire staff was overworked - doing upwards of 60 hours a week in many cases. The problem? They couldn't offer as many hours to a "man". But I digress, so I was in the government office, looking for additional part-time and casual jobs to supplement my income when I came across a document entitled - "doctoral programs for women". Thinking I might like to advance my education at the university level (I was only an LPN at the time), I noted that the government was willing to pay all expenses for university attendance - the catch>? It was a program only open to WOMEN. Oh that's two bees in that bonet.

So yes, I think feminism has progressed well past any concept of fairness, into what I would term, "the preferential me first, give me.. give me.. mode".

LOL...when looking at history one notices the swarms of bees in the bonnets of women. While I respect your right to your opinion, and realize many people feel this way, I think it is based on an emotional response instead of a review of history and current facts. But I will put a disclaimer here that this is only my opinion...and doesn't mean I think it is superior to yours.

Besides, I don't want to kill the laughter from Jay's last post...we were finally agreeing!

[jb2u]

Originally Posted by dougRN2BE

LOL...when looking at history one notices the swarms of bees in the bonnets of women. While I respect your right to your opinion, and realize many people feel this way, I think it is based on an emotional response instead of a review of history and current facts. But I will put a disclaimer here that this is only my opinion...and doesn't mean I think it is superior to yours.

Besides, I don't want to kill the laughter from Jay's last post...we were finally agreeing!

jay is still laughing

i think we turned this thread from males abusing their female coworkers by getting them to do all our work to women getting paid less than a man. i'll have to go back and see where exactly that happened!

the great thing about this site is the same thing that is great about America....it is ok if we disagree, it's our right to. once upon a time someone looked upon women struggling in the work place and said "hey that's not fair", but i do think it's time to take a second look and see if times have changed. But it needs to be by someone that does not have an agenda either way!

still laughing,
jay

[jb2u]

Originally Posted by Roy Fokker

What's with this whole "boo hoo us poor men" attitude? Please don't tell me you actually believe it!

Dollar for dollar - a man still makes more money, for the same job than a woman --- EVEN in a profession like Nursing.

Person for person - there are more men employed in the workforce than women --- despite the quotas for women.


I don't buy this 'disadvantaged men in our society' baloney for one second.

I don't deny that many of the policies of the feminist movement have been misguided (some have been down right stupid). But there have been many positive outcomes from women's advocacy groups.

Stop and think for a minute please!

i found the culprit on page 12, i just followed the trail



...ok mr. fokker (that's for getting us off topic )

still laughing,
jay

[Roy Fokker]

LOL

It happens a lot around here guys - threads tend to meander.

But you're right - let us nudge it back on track

[nursemike]

Originally Posted by ern91

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has the issue of male nurses refusing to perform certain nursing functions simply because they are male. Having worked in a large teaching hospital and smaller community hospitals, there seems to be a huge difference. In the teaching hospital, male nurses did everything a patient needed, regardless of gender. In the smaller community hospitals, the male nurses sought out female nurses to take care of all manner of female patient's hygiene, all gyn exams ,and anything else a female patient needed. Have we become such a litigous society that we base our practice on gender? Do you find yourself taking care of your male colleagues patients as well as your own simply because they are afraid to touch their female patients?

I'm a male nurse, and I frequently have to perform fairly intimate care on female patients. Much less frequently than I might once have imagined, a female patient may request a female nurse or aide to assist with toileting or a bath. In my first year of nursing, I've had two patients request a female nurse be assigned to them instead of a male, and one other swapped after I told my charge nurse about some rather bizarre comments she had made (it didn't occur to me that I could ask to have her reassigned, but when my CN suggested it, I was really glad she was looking out for me. Looking out for all of us, really.)
I almost never ask a patient whether she would prefer a female nurse to do something for her. If they don't bring it up, neither do I. I do occassionally need to take a moment to compose myself before going in to do something I find awkward or embarrassing, but overcoming my feelings is part and parcel of being a nurse. Very, very rarely I'll have a situation that causes me to ask a female to do it without even trying--a patient who has been noticeably modest about a simple head-to-toe assessment and now needs a foley, for example. But that, to me, is like asking someone to start an IV that I haven't even attempted. Except for once in a blue moon, it just isn't done.
I do, at times, ask a female aide, or a nurse who isn't busy, to "chaperone" a proceedure.
I never, ever balk at providing personal care for a female co-worker's bashful male patient. It doesn't happen often, I'll admit, but when it does, I assume it's about the patient's comfort, rather than anything to do with the nurse. I also never balk at helping with lifts and transfers. It happens to be something I'm pretty good at doing, and I really enjoy being part of a team of very good nurses who work very well together. Any chance to contribute to that is welcome. Besides, I never know when I might get an order for a foley on a 16-yr-old girl.


PS I work in a teaching hospital. WV is unusual in not really having any major urban center, but a couple of our larger small cities are downright comsopolitan, compared to our many rural communities. A lot of our 20th Century sensibilities might not fly at a 20-bed hospital, back up in the hollers where the sun don't shine but twice a year.

[Jasano]

Originally Posted by dougRN2BE

LOL...when looking at history one notices the swarms of bees in the bonnets of women. While I respect your right to your opinion, and realize many people feel this way, I think it is based on an emotional response instead of a review of history and current facts. But I will put a disclaimer here that this is only my opinion...and doesn't mean I think it is superior to yours.

Besides, I don't want to kill the laughter from Jay's last post...we were finally agreeing!

Well, I disagree with you completely. There is no justification for discrimination against men or against women. You seem to be quite willing to overlook some rather blatant discrimination against men, because of some hardship that women have had to endure. Wrong is wrong in my view, irregardless of genitalia. ;in this, at least, women have the government, the media, all the king's horses and their little men on their side.

I think it's funny that when men are discriminated against in fields like nursing, that no one bats and eye, but when some woman somewhere feels someone 'might' have treated her unfairly, the entire press gallery shows up with government officials in tow to right the 'perceived' wrong. Let me tell you boys, there are quotas for medicine, paramedics, policing and dozens if not hundreds of other professions, but there is not one quota, not one initiative, not one comittee, examining issues related to men in nursing.

[twotrees2]

Originally Posted by ern91

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has the issue of male nurses refusing to perform certain nursing functions simply because they are male. Having worked in a large teaching hospital and smaller community hospitals, there seems to be a huge difference. In the teaching hospital, male nurses did everything a patient needed, regardless of gender. In the smaller community hospitals, the male nurses sought out female nurses to take care of all manner of female patient's hygiene, all gyn exams ,and anything else a female patient needed. Have we become such a litigous society that we base our practice on gender? Do you find yourself taking care of your male colleagues patients as well as your own simply because they are afraid to touch their female patients?

we do have one who is leary and we do not hve a problem helping hom when we can - he will do it but we know he is uncomfortable so we try to help if at all possible abd he is more than willing to exchange a charge if we ask.

[tgeorgeacero]

I, as a male RN, never had any problems with performing patient care or procedures on female patients until, several months ago, while I was working in a long-term health care facility, the LPN supervisor ordered me to straight cath a female patient. I took two CNAs into the room with me, as I wanted witnesses for the procedure, and I thank God that I had the intelligence to do so. The next day, the DON called me and said, very angrily, that the LPNs (I was the only RN in the building) were accusing me of abusing the patient that I had cathererized. I assume that the DON believed the LPN's accusations at first. I calmly referred her to the CNAs that witnessed what I had done, and I never heard from her again. I never returned to this facility again, and I will never work as an RN with an LPN as my supervisor again either. I have nothing against LPNs, and I do everything I can to avoid problems and confrontations with anyone. I thought that I was on good terms with everyone there, as well. I was wrong. Maybe they felt uncomfortable because I am a Mexican-American. I don't know why nurses are so hard on each other, but this experience has made me very reluctant to perform some procedures on female patients. I hope that some of the nurses who read this reply will think about the possible reasons that a male nurse might have to be hesitant to perform some procedures. He just may of had to endure a nightmare situation which left a few psychological scars.

[nursemike]

Originally Posted by Jasano

Well, I disagree with you completely. There is no justification for discrimination against men or against women. You seem to be quite willing to overlook some rather blatant discrimination against men, because of some hardship that women have had to endure. Wrong is wrong in my view, irregardless of genitalia. ;in this, at least, women have the government, the media, all the king's horses and their little men on their side.

I think it's funny that when men are discriminated against in fields like nursing, that no one bats and eye, but when some woman somewhere feels someone 'might' have treated her unfairly, the entire press gallery shows up with government officials in tow to right the 'perceived' wrong. Let me tell you boys, there are quotas for medicine, paramedics, policing and dozens if not hundreds of other professions, but there is not one quota, not one initiative, not one comittee, examining issues related to men in nursing.

There's a thread on Discrimination Against Men in Nursing that discusses these issues at some length, and might be more appropriate to this side of the debate. Judging by some of those posts, discrimination against men does occur, although many of us, including me, have never experienced it. Seems to depend a lot on where you are.

[twotrees2]

Originally Posted by royr

As a male nursing student (Senior in a BSN program) it is required that I have a Female RN present at all times when doing any proceedure in the Nurse's scope of practice in reguard to female patients. During my OB/GYN clinical rotation, I have in fact had 1 and only 1 patient flatly refuse to allow me to do her Labor and delivery care. Her response was "Oh my God - there is a MAN in my room" when I introduced myself as I walked in the door accompanied by my Female RN instructor. I excused myself and exited the room quickly. Every patient has a right to refuse medical care for any reason or no reason at all. We as nuses both male and female need to accept this as the fact of our employment. We are expected to work on the floor or the unit as a team. If one team member can't do a task for ANY reason, it is up to the other team members to fill in the void. A female student quickly assumed my patient in this situation, and I was re assigned to her patient for the duration of the shift. I worked at that point with the breast feeding consultant (another female RN) and helped a new Mom learn to position and breast feed her son. I still learned much that dayand contributed my fair share of the work load, in spite of the issue of my "maleness". I think if we are adults about such things, all issues can be resolved and patients given the care they need.

i am very grateful more men are gttiing int o nursing. when truth be told many men prefer a man but they just "accept " a female as that is the "usual norm" - when i am able i offer to have a male do a cath or cares on a man and often they will gladly prefer it. thanks to all you males who are getting in the setting. you are welcome and needed. thank you.