[Nurse Entrepreneur]

I do not think there is a nursing shortage either. I think the issue is that the hospital jobs available are not attractive and nurses are accepting other job opportunities or creating their own. I have 15 years experience as an RN. I am not getting any younger. I am also smart enough to not put up with the BS I have seen occur in the hospital setting when it comes to critical issues like nurse to patient ratios, salaries, work conditions, benefits, opportunities for advancement, etc. Why would I want to work on my feet for 8, 12, 16 hours a day, risk injuring my back and feel overworked and underappreciated when there are more attractive opportunities for me? We can choose to not work in that kind of a situation.

I work a part-time job as a sedation nurse for a general dentistry practice and an oral surgery practice. I was able to negotiate a salary above what I would make in the hospital with full time benefits. I really enjoy the work and the people I work with. That says a lot!

I also work part-time from home as a lactation consultant, educational consultant and legal nurse consultant. I also webmaster several websites. This is where the bulk of my income comes from. I created those jobs using my nursing knowledge base and building on it.

I know several nurses in my area who chose not to work in the hospital setting and are happy with the choices they made. I know a nurse who cleans houses, another who has a Mary Kay business, another who owns a nursing agency, another who sells Longaberger baskets and these are their primary sources of income. What person wouldn't want to choose their income level, work from home, schedule their day the way they want it? Just take a look at the attractiveness of those job opportunities and is it any wonder that nurses don't want the jobs that are available in the hospital setting?

[NRSKarenRN]

Comments regarding Health leaders STAFFING SHORTAGES: Healthcare Staffing Shortages November 2004 Fact File: Staffing Shortages

can be adressed to: magazine.editor@healthleaders.com

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by Hellllllo Nurse

I posted a thread on here a while back asking for the opnions of BSNs whom had started as ASNs. I asked them if they thought it was worth it to go on and get their BSN as far as pay, respect, etc. were concerend. Every nurse who replied to the thread said NO.

This thread seems to have morphed into another ADN vs. BSN thread.

In my experience, it is usually BSN students who are not yet nurses who bring up this topic. I think it is because the ADN vs. BSN and the we-would-be-more-respected-if-the-BSN-were-the-entry-level-degree topic is included in a school assignment or discussion.

I think that most of us who have been nurses for years see how things are, and don't feel that it would make much difference if all nurses were BSN prepared.

Pardon me, but I made it clear that I have been a nurse for many years (I was originally a diploma grad from NYC- September 1975), & saw the writing on the wall with a year after I had graduated. It shoud not take a rocket scientist to figure out that nursing is at the bottom of the food chain. If I could see that as a new grad, surely, those of you who have been out there working for years should be able to also. It is the type of people who choose to enter nursing, and the type of potential students that the schools try to attract that is the biggest problem.

Nursing is dominated by mostly women who need to validate their self importance and self worth by continuing the lie that a community college degree is as accepted as "professional", regardless of the low level of education. JUST LOOK AROUND YOU IN THE HOSPITAL! Even Physical Therapy ASSISTANTS have at least a associates degree as entry into practice. Dental Hygienists have a Bachelors Degree- to clean teeth!! SOCIAL WORKERS HAVE A MASTERS AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE.

The type of work that is done by a nurse, the knowledge of physiology, patholophysiology, chemistry, the complex decision making is deserving of a hgher level of education. I am sorry that not everyone lives close to a college to get a four year degre. Other professions that have a Bachelors Degree or higher as entry into practice finds a way to get there and pay for it. And there is not the whining that accompanies the request to nurses to accept a higher level of education. Most are just grateful that they were accepted into the program of the professional school that they chose to go to. They are smart enough to see the big picture.

Don't you see that the hospitals and insurance companies just love it when nurses refuse to accept a higher leve of education?? Or deprive nurses with BSN's who work at bedside nursing a differential for their degree? Teachers are paid more money for their degrees even though they do the same job as the teacher witout one. You are playing right into their hands. They have us right where they want us. Undereducated powerless, and fighting. Pts' started raising their entry into practice in the 80's when DRGs came about. They saw how nurses were being replaced by aides and techs and they didn't want to suffer the same fate and get replaced by college kids that work in the health clubs with degrees in physical education. There is actually, by the way, a PE track, called "Corrective Therapy", that does pretty much the same thing as Physical Therapists. I have a minor in PE and had all the pre -physical therapay students in my classes! The only pre requisate that the PT majors took that the PE and nursing students didn't was physics. Thats it. The difference between a degree with a future in PT and a dead end one in PE. Kids in my class came up her to Washington State to get their degree in PT because the programs in the state universitys in California were impacted and the wait was years.


My point is we will be eliminated and in- sourced if we continue as we are. A higher education level makes us seem non essential. PT's were harder to eliminate because, with a masteres degree, ti was harder for the hospital to argue that an aide who was a has drop out could do our job. We knew that they couldn't, but it was the perception that our profession is just unskilled tasks that could be done by anyone that was our downfall. That story is a harder sell when the individuals with advanced college degrees are being replaced are being replaced by people with minimal educational requirements. Has anyone tried to replace teachers? Haven't heard it yet and you won't. Because teachers have a powerful union, and the support of the public. Parents won't stand for junior to be taught by a HS drop out with 6 weeks of OJT. Would they? Even though there are parents who are HS dropouts who home school there kids with better results than the public schools who have teachers with masters degrees. It is all perception. The public equates worth with education. That is a fact. That is the audience that we need to play for. The public can love nurses as much as they like, but go and tell them that you want to earn $80, 000 a year, and watch their reaction. All I ever heard when I mentioned nurses' pay was, "What do you girls expect? You only went to school for two years? That is the public's perception. That,as well, is fact.

That is my un- popular opinion. I have had more people e mail me supporting it than not. The truth hurts and is hard to swallow. But it is. I believe that I will see the end to the nursing profession as we know it in my lifetime. You can bet on it and they are counting on it. Wait and see.

Linda RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane Washington

[rach_nc_03]

"It is the type of people who choose to enter nursing, and the type of potential students that the schools try to attract that is the biggest problem.

Nursing is dominated by mostly women who need to validate their self importance and self worth by continuing the lie that a community college degree is as accepted as "professional", regardless of the low level of education."

I'm terribly sorry, Linda, but the majority of nursing students I know are already educated in other fields- many have bachelors degrees in other fields, or higher- one of my classmates has 2 bachelors degrees and a master's, and one woman has a phd in pharmacology! we are in an ADN program because the time and money involved in getting a BSN are prohibitive for us. We've had successful careers, and we're intelligent, outspoken, well-read, professional, savvy, and, quite frankly, the antithesis of what you described above. I don't need my self-importance validated by my nursing career. I chose to go into nursing, rather than finding another tech position after the economy changed, for a variety of reasons, but being validated certainly wasn't one of them. I made six figures working as a senior corporate strategist at a technology firm, finding ways for our company to maxmize profits; I'm well aware of how companies want the most work done for the least amount of money.


"Most are just grateful that they were accepted into the program of the professional school that they chose to go to. They are smart enough to see the big picture."

My classmates and I were smart enough to see *our* big picture: the ADN is the fastest route to practice. I attended a very highly-ranked university, and the instruction I receive in my ADN program is given by faculty who have taught, or currently also teach, at the same university I attended.

I don't know if the new grad nurses where you live are vastly different than those I know. I suppose there are plenty of ADN programs that do offer a 'low level of education'. But I think you're making a VERY broad generalization that, at least in my geographical area, is patently false. i do think there should be additional education required for nurses, including more clinical hours, and that all programs, like mine, should select students based on admission testing, GPA, and the like (many ADN programs admit on a wait-list basis, not requiring any testing). You have some salient points. But your denigration of *all* ADN programs and graduates is over the top.

[Hellllllo Nurse]

Lindarn,

I think you are "playing right into their hands" as well.
After all, hospitals know that the "divide and conquer" approach has been very successful in helpng to keep nurses down, and your comments certainly are divisive.

[mattsmom81]

Originally Posted by RN4NICU

~~~~ Standing ovation, Lindarn -- I am with you, 100% ~~~~

As am I...thank you for posting what I also believe to be true. Now...our challenge will be to remedy these problems and take our power. I hope to see it happen in my lifetime. I am hopeful watching my brothers and sisters in union areas.

[lossforimagination]

Originally Posted by Hellllllo Nurse

Lindarn,

I think you are "playing right into their hands" as well.
After all, hospitals know that the "divide and conquer" approach has been very successful in helpng to keep nurses down, and your comments certainly are divisive.

And this is precisely the problem.....getting ***** about someone stating the truth. I believe in seeing reality. The truth IS that nurses need to do what the field of PT has done so they are in a more credible position to demand better treatment. Or, they need to truly unite and become militantly pro union. No one is going to give nurses anything if we don't demand it.

The problem as I see it; is that if I pursue further education, it most surely won't be in the field of nursing. Granted, a license is required for certain beside skills; but bedside nursing is very stressful with plenty of dirty work.....not a desirable job as far as I'm concerned. And who with a Master's degree would possibly want the job? As it is, not too many BSNs want the job. I don't see how increasing the entry level educational requirements will work. I think the only reason there are as many nurses as there are now is because the education requirements are only 2 years. People see nursing as a fast way to achieve job security(?) and the pay sure beats Wal Mart. It's about needing a job that pays reasonably well that probably won't be outsourced.

[CCU NRS]

We do need to unify but not Uninize. We need to create a total nursing coalition in which every nurse in the country (sorry to those of you from other countires but I am only concened with America for the purposes of this discussion)must register. I do not feel that level of entry education should be a concern (not right now at least) I would bet that at least half of the nurses perfroming bedside care (which Linda has admitted she would not do "not stupid enough to want to do" as have several of the other BSN educated nurses that have posted)are ADN or LP/VN trained. A national registry that would encompass all nurses and then set up rights, rules and regulations for all nursing. Things such as safe Pt ratios, number of Pt a single RN can be expected to safely be respinsible for (including BIG changes in LTC) addressing wages, benefits, retirement planning etc. Unionization would not be a wise direction D/T the fact of right to work and employers ability to separate unions by location etc. A National Nurse Registry that would unite ALL nurses and bring us to the same conclusions regarding safe practice and acceptable standards of pay. Each level ADN, BSN, MSN, LP/VN having a set standard to follow for their educational and responsibility level. If nurses were to unite Nationally then make all facilites, LTC, Hospital, Psych, Doctor's office, clinic, Home health, Hospice all facets of nursing responsibility addressed and issues related to each feild taken on a situational basis, for example (I am in no way qualified to make legitimate suggestions these are simply examples for consideration to explain a concept): Hospital med-surg Pt ratios nationally 4-5 to one on days and max of 6-8 on evening and night. LTC RN per q 35 residents with at least 4 staff either RN or LPN to provide care per that same ratio. Home Health and Hospice of course would be very dificult to set exact ratios per'se but if enough of the nurses from each of these fields got to gether and discussed and decided in the end there could be some acceptable regulations devised.



It will take national unity I beleive but to absolutely beleive that simply a higher level of entry education will somehow bring the instant and automtic resolution and higher status and respect is IMHO naive.

[SmilingBluEyes]

I would like to see all RN's have baccalaureate degrees or higher. But NOT necessarily BSN. I would like to see other bachelor's degrees recognized and honored as such..., whether by previous study before pursing nursing, or in study after becoming an RN. If education is so valuable, why limit our choice to BSN only? Personally, mine would be in biology, foreign languages (emphasis on French and Spanish), or business. I see no real added value in a BSN over my ADN as it stands, other than the letters it adds to the name........and I would be much more interested in the studies provided in a more stimulating course of study for me.....

I would MUCH rather invest MY money in the degree of MY choosing. Once an ADN, I am fully qualified as an RN, and frankly, I don't WANT this other gobblygook the ADN-BSN program serves up...blech. I don't want MORE clinical hours, I have done PLENTY between my ADN and almost 8 years as a realworld RN. I think the whole RN-BSN thing is one big money grab and it really annoys me. After I someday get the BSN, I will want to pursue a master's, but probably NOT an MSN.

[Hellllllo Nurse]

Originally Posted by lossforimagination

And this is precisely the problem.....getting ***** about someone stating the truth.

Yes, that is exactly what you are doing.

As I've stated before, I believe that if every nurse had a BSN, then we would have a bunch of BSNs being treated badly.

I believe that the issues leading to "Nurse Abuse" are for more complex and multi-facted than just entry level education requirements.

Here is one of the numerous books I've read on my own search for what ails us and what we can do about it. I recommend this book to every nurse: