[CCU NRS]

Originally Posted by RN4NICU

Absolutely correct, ocankhe. All the advocating for hospital based nursing programs fails to recognize that nurse does not necessarily equal bedside caregiver. There are other opportunities in nursing besides med/surg staff nurse (if there were not, I would have never even considered nursing for the first split second). In addition, these shortage have ways of "working themselves out" no matter what it does to working conditions, which is why they are largely cyclical. Case in point - Gov. Schwazenegger is already screwing around with CA's hard fought for and hard won ratios.

Of course there are many different nursing oppotunities but how many schools perform theior clincals in Docotrs offices or Dialysis or endoscopy for that matter, general nursing skill lclinicals are for the most part performed in Hospital and LTC and Psych facilities. My point in returning to facility based programs is that you could have more available instructors through out the facility, there could an adjunct position on every shift and multiple units so that more students get through the clincal portion of school in a shorter time span.

[Hellllllo Nurse]

Originally Posted by CCU NRS

I still don't agree that there is NO shortage! I understand how some look at the numbers and see that there are 18.3% of registered nurses not in healthcare and that there are like 42,000 nurses nationwide not in healthcare,

That number is 494,100 licensed RNs currently not working as nurses, not 42,000.


According to the stats, there are 400,000 RN job openings in the U.S. So, there are 100,000 more licensed RNs in The U.S. than there are jobs.


I am personally looking for a travel job in chronic dialysis and having trouble finding one.
I do not think there has ever been a nursing shortage.

[CCU NRS]

Originally Posted by lindarn

There is a nursing shortage because nurses are leaving the profession faster than they are entering it. There is no nursing shortage. There is a shortage of nurses who are stupid enough to want to work at the bedside. The shortage will be fixed when nurses are paid a salary commensaurate with the education, responsibiliy, and inconvenience to our lives to work 24/7.

Nurses need to be educated as to their worth, and their contribution to health care. Nurses need to be militant and learn to DEMAND better wages, working condition, etc. Nurses need to be educated in the econmomics of the hospital, and learn the concept of re- imbursement. Nurses are like babes in the woods and have no idea what they contribute to health care. Nurses need to stop being "Saint Martyr Marys", and demand better pay, working conditions, benefits, retirement, etc.

Nurses need to start billing for their serivices and demand that it be included in the patients hospital bill. We are invisible when $$ aspect is being discussed and where are services are a part of the bill. As long as nursing services are included with the room rate and the complementary roll of toilet paper, we will never be taken seriously, and be considered important to patients, the public, and most importantly, to the administration and insurance companues who pay the bills. No matter how great he public thinks that we are, we will never have the same importance if our services are invisible. We are only a line item expense to the hospital. Our names only appear in the "expense column". We bring in no revenue as far as they are concerned.

These are things that need to be taught in nursing school. PT's and OT's are. The schools started teaching this after they went to a Masters as entry into practice (after DRG's took control- they wanted to protect what was theirs). They are encouraged and taught how to start a business. Hospitals know that to encourage them to work in a hospital they have to make it attractive. There is also not a glut of individuals who are looking for a quick way to make money. PT's are going to a DOCTORATE as entry into practice. They make alot more money than nurses do. What does this say about US. The higher education level also encourages more dedication to the field. There is not alot of dedication (or respect) when you go to school for only two years. I have lost count of the number of times I have been told, "what do you expect? You only went to school for two years!!" The public equates worth with education.

Lengthing the program to at least a BSN would decrease the numbers of nurses coming out of school. Hospitals have no reason to focus on retention when "ABC Community College" is graduating its next class in June, only 6 months away. They would think twice about annoying nurses enough to quit when they know that the next class will not graduate for another 4 years. We don't need more nurses. There are 500,000 nurses not working as nurses, me being one of them. Schools don't need to turn out the numbers the government says they do They need to keep the nurse that they have. PT's and OT's increased their educational requirements to decrease the number of people entering the profession. Period. Fewer PT's and OT's mean they can can charge for their serivices. Nurses are a dime a dozen. We need to learn negotiating skills to deal with administration. And learn and accept what our skills are worth in the marketplace. I exclusively do legal nurse consulting for attorneys, and set my own rates. I charge a three figure salaries, and I am giving myself a $20/hr raise in February. We need to incorporate and form "Nursing Practice Groups" like physicians do and contract with the hospitals for our services. This takes money, money is power and the last thing that the hospitals want us to have is power. What better way to keep us as "abused wives", but to control the flow of money. Nurses just don't get it. Until we take conrol and power, we will never own our profession.

We also have to concentrate on putting pressure on our Boards of Nursing to stop handing over our professional practice to the lowest bidder. PT's and OT's guard their professional practice like a hawk. I fear that if nurses don't take command and control of their profession that we will become an extinct entity, taken over by minimally trained personnel and foreign nurses. I truly believe that that is the ultimate goal of the hospital associations and the insurance companies. When our availability and numbers at the bedside are what the projections are for the future, there won't be any question regarding dumbing down the profession and allowing unskilled workers to do our job. This kind of education take more than 1- 2 years. It needs to be in a university setting over 4 years, if not more. There is more to an education than A&P, Chemistry, etc. There are other classes that are important. By just saying, to "cut out the english and history" you are placing nursing in the blue collar unskilled workforce. You know, like the "Bryman School- become a medical assistant in just 6 months". Is that really where you want nursing to go? We have enough of a credibility problem right now with what we have. Good grief! Even PT ASSISTANTS have a two year Associates Degree as entry into practice!! We need to be able to sit at the negotiating table, and the Board Room with administrators, and Boards of Directors who have Harvard MBA's. Nurses with ADN's and Diplomas aren't invited there.

I am sorry that this is too long. This is a complicated subject but nurses need to step back and look at the big picture. Time is running out, and the longer we delay the changes that are needed, the worse the situation will become. You are only delaying the inevitable. I fear by the time nurse come to their senses we will not have a profession left.

Linda RN, BSN, CCRN (former diploma grad, who figured out real quick who was at the bottom of the food chain).
Spokane, Washington

So are you saying that there should be NO LPN, ADN programs? That only BSN 4 year graduates are intelligent enough to be able to see that we are powerless? That only college graduate nurses are capable of performing the tasks you feel need to be brought into action such as a nurse registry and the ability to set our own wages and control the profession? Is it your contention that if only BSN graduted nurses should be allowed? In this manner removing all of the "blue collar" under educated skilled labor from the picture will then give nurses the ability to unite and form a coalition that can ban together and design a model that will take the power out of the hands of the facilities and put it into the nurses control?


I see where you are heading but I feel that you are cutting of your nose to spite your face. How many nurses do you beleive have started as CNA's and worked their way through school the fastest and surest way to increase your salary by double being a one year LPN program. Then while working as an LPN continue your education and again the next fastest way to double your salary is to enter an LPN to ADN program. Then again while raising a family and working and continuing your education complete your BSN degree and finally have that piece of paper that says that you are a REAL NURSE, not just a "blue collar" worker anymore. Do you honestly beleive that because you can afford to go to the 4 year school right out of HS you are smarter more determined or even better than a person who works and earns their way up the chain?
This is sort how your tirade came off to me, by discounting LPNs and ADNs you are making lite a great part of the work force. Yes some of us enjoy bedside nursing, may not be your cup of tea but you simply stating.

Originally Posted by lindarn

There is a shortage of nurses who are stupid enough to want to work at the bedside.

Mass generalizations like this one detract greatly from any intelligence you might display throughout the remainder of your proposal. You also seem to contradict yourself in a couple of areas.

Originally Posted by lindarn

There is a nursing shortage because nurses are leaving the profession faster than they are entering it. There is no nursing shortage.

So is there a shortage, D/T nurses leaving the field or is there no shortage?


You seem to have some valid ideas and I agree that a registry that would give us the power would be nice. I also feel it would take a great deal of money planning and willingness to become united as a profession. Then you tear down half of the profession by calling them "blue collar" workers.

So I guess over all color me confused on where you really stand.
Good luck and much happiness with your very lucrative legal consulting career. perhaps you can become a leader in this battle with your understanding of what the issues are?

[RN4NICU]

~~~~ Standing ovation, Lindarn -- I am with you, 100% ~~~~

[NurseGuy_in_06]

Wow RN4NICU. Venting just a tad. I will graduate from "ABC community college" in 2006 with an ASN in nursing on top of a BS in engineering. Guess what, I have to pass the same boards as any other nurse. I get a tad touchy when I feel someone is putting down what I am doing. One of the main reasons for nursing being considered second-class is that doctors run most of the hospitals and the medical profession and most doctors are men. We think differently than women. We want to be in charge, be the hunter, etc. while women nurture. As I see it the more men that get into nursing the more nursing will change. We tend to overlook less and take less guff than most women and demand more. But at only 5% of the profession what can we do?

[RN4NICU]

Originally Posted by CCU NRS

So are you saying that there should be NO LPN, ADN programs? That only BSN 4 year graduates are intelligent enough to be able to see that we are powerless? That only college graduate nurses are capable of performing the tasks you feel need to be brought into action such as a nurse registry and the ability to set our own wages and control the profession? Is it your contention that if only BSN graduted nurses should be allowed? In this manner removing all of the "blue collar" under educated skilled labor from the picture will then give nurses the ability to unite and form a coalition that can ban together and design a model that will take the power out of the hands of the facilities and put it into the nurses control?

I see where you are going here, but our education is our credibility. Perhaps if there were no LPN or ADN programs - phase them out for the future, but those who graduated would be grandfathered in, just as other professions have done - perhaps nursing could gain the power that physical therapy and pharmacy have gained by changing their level of entry to practice to the post-graduate level. When one year of post-secondary education makes you a "nurse", THAT is what it takes "to be a nurse" and it severely damages our credibility. We BECOME "blue collar under educated skilled labor", as you put it because of our lowest common denominator of education. That is what I find simply unacceptable.

IN NO WAY am I saying that LPNs and ADNs are not just as qualified as BSNs to provide nursing care. Just like pharmacists and physical therapists were not saying that members of their profession with less than a masters degree were less qualified, which is why they were grandfathered in. What I am saying (as these other professions have said) is that I want more for my profession - I want credibility and power in the job market. Education grants that.

[CCU NRS]

Originally Posted by Hellllllo Nurse

That number is 494,100 licensed RNs currently not working as nurses, not 42,000.


According to the stats, there are 400,000 RN job openings in the U.S. So, there are 100,000 more licensed RNs in The U.S. than there are jobs.


I am personally looking for a travel job in chronic dialysis and having trouble finding one.
I do not think there has ever been a nursing shortage.

Ok it was my math I multiplied by 18 percent and didn't put enough zeros. So even with 500,000 licensed that are not working in the field do weknow where they are woorking or what they are doing? For example there are probably hundreds of thousands of Beauticians that are licensed but do not work in the field, they are married and used to work or have gone to somehting else but once you have that license it is cheaper and more intelligent to keep it updated and pay the annual fee than to let it lapse and risk kneeding it in the future. Same witrh nursing, these 500,000 may never PLAN to work in nursing again butonce you have your license you would be foolish not to keep it updated and have iot as a fall back because one nevr knows what could happen. My point is that if they are not working in the healtcare profession they don't cont in the number working. They may never work again and we can not count on them.

[CCU NRS]

Originally Posted by RN4NICU

I see where you are going here, but our education is our credibility. Perhaps if there were no LPN or ADN programs - phase them out for the future, but those who graduated would be grandfathered in, just as other professions have done - perhaps nursing could gain the power that physical therapy and pharmacy have gained by changing their level of entry to practice to the post-graduate level. When one year of post-secondary education makes you a "nurse", THAT is what it takes "to be a nurse" and it severely damages our credibility. We BECOME "blue collar under educated skilled labor", as you put it because of our lowest common denominator of education. That is what I find simply unacceptable.

IN NO WAY am I saying that LPNs and ADNs are not just as qualified as BSNs to provide nursing care. Just like pharmacists and physical therapists were not saying that members of their profession with less than a masters degree were less qualified, which is why they were grandfathered in. What I am saying (as these other professions have said) is that I want more for my profession - I want credibility and power in the job market. Education grants that.

It obviously isn't that simple. I believe that any level of nurse LPN ASN BSN could all get the respect they deserve if they could simply find a way to unite, and form some type of registry, with all levels covered. Our education as our credibility is not the issue. Our inability to unite and present a unified force is the issue. UAW is full of people that never went to college but they formed an organization and put in place a hierarchy and now they are able to control the issues we are discussing. So Organization yes limits on education and degrading LPNs and ADNs NO! Entry level is sitting for boards, as Nurse guy mentioned he will take the same boards as any BSN and it doesn't make him any less a nurse, just less educated in thoery which a good nurse will learn more from experience than any college course can ever teach.


Male LPN 9 years ASN 1.5 years working toward BSN and working in a Moderate sized city in a busy CCU for the last 7.5 years. I learned more from working with veteran nurses than I ever learned in any class.

[eternity1]

Originally Posted by MAnurseHopeful

Wow, that's interesting. I don't think the same issue exists in Mass. I know of several nursing students that are months away from graduating and all already have 3-4 job offers for when the graduate.

The same is actually true in the Atlanta are. There are several nursing schools in this area that are churning 'em out and they all have the opportunity for jobs right away.

[Hellllllo Nurse]

Originally Posted by CCU NRS

So even with 500,000 licensed that are not working in the field do weknow where they are woorking or what they are doing?

This is what we need to know. What are they doing?
Why aren't they working in nursing?

There is not a nursing shortage- there are plenty more nurses than are needed. What we have is a shortage of working nurses.

A shortage of working nurses is entirely different than a nursing shortage.

It is very important to know why these nurses are not working in nursing- if they left nursing due to burn-out, injury, working conditions, etc. Then, who is to say the exact same thing won't occur with all the new nurses coming up? If so, we will be right back where we started.
I recently read that new nurses are leaving the field in record numbers- they are leaving nursing faster after graduating, and in greater percentages than any previous generation. Also, this article said that male nurses leave at twice the rate (per capita) than female nurses do.