[banditrn]

Originally Posted by earle58

i admire your will, marla.
but don't you think it may be easier for a white person to claw their way out, than a person of color?
i'm just trying to be realistic.

and back on topic, yes, i do feel there should be a societal contribution to helping those less fortunate.
and yes, viking, it would make perfect sense for medicaid to cover otc meds.
but as you've implied, greed is the driving force that quells common sense and sound judgment.

leslie

Leslie - I see no reason why 'persons of color' need to remain in poverty, other than societal expectations. Which is total BS.

Black people have the intelligence and capabilities to do anything they want - I should know. But instead, too many of them listen to the two 'Reverends' and fall into the 'victim' mentality.

This is also what our run-away social programs have done - encouraged people to develope the 'entitlement' mentality.

When I grew up, and again when we raised our kids, we didn't ask for 'government' handouts - we did it ourselves, and it wasn't always easy - but now I'm being asked to approve greater and greater give-aways!!

Do you realize in some states that it's forbidden for the social workers to ask about a person's immigration status when they apply for welfare?

[earle58]

Originally Posted by banditrn

Black people have the intelligence and capabilities to do anything they want - I should know. But instead, too many of them listen to the two 'Reverends' and fall into the 'victim' mentality.

bandit, i understand that with a fierce determination, anyone is capable of digging themselves out of a hole.
i was wondering aloud, if perhaps poor white people would get more breaks, than poor black people.

there was recently a thread about being a nurse of color in the workplace.
it was through that thread that i came to understand that prejudice remains a fulminant force in this country.
so while marla was saying that if she can do it, then anyone can.
i'm not so sure.
and if anyone can, i still think it's going to be a heck of a lot more difficult for some.

i appreciate your concept of victim mentality.
i've always been in awe of people who have defined themselves and have touched the stars.
that any obstacle is only another challenge and one that can and will be conquered.

feeling apathetic is not the same as a victim mentality.
this social class needs their props.
they need programs, classes, funding, to support them in learning a trade.
this will provide them with the hope, vision and motivation that so many lack.

there are certainly enough loopholes and incentives in our system, that enables the rich to only attain more money.
why not do something productive for our society as a whole, and provide a foundation for those truly in need?
personally, i tire quickly of this "every man for himself" attitude.
it's time to come together.
dang, even many churches, who are known for their philanthropy, ultimately rake in the dough.
it would be nice to see us truly extend ourselves, as the brothers and sisters we are, w/o having ulterior motives or perceived gains.

my rose-tinted glasses, i think, are blinding me.

leslie

[banditrn]

Originally Posted by earle58

bandit, i understand that with a fierce determination, anyone is capable of digging themselves out of a hole.
i was wondering aloud, if perhaps poor white people would get more breaks, than poor black people.

there was recently a thread about being a nurse of color in the workplace.
it was through that thread that i came to understand that prejudice remains a fulminant force in this country.
so while marla was saying that if she can do it, then anyone can.
i'm not so sure.
and if anyone can, i still think it's going to be a heck of a lot more difficult for some.

i appreciate your concept of victim mentality.
i've always been in awe of people who have defined themselves and have touched the stars.
that any obstacle is only another challenge and one that can and will be conquered.

feeling apathetic is not the same as a victim mentality.
this social class needs their props.
they need programs, classes, funding, to support them in learning a trade.
this will provide them with the hope, vision and motivation that so many lack.

there are certainly enough loopholes and incentives in our system, that enables the rich to only attain more money.
why not do something productive for our society as a whole, and provide a foundation for those truly in need?
personally, i tire quickly of this "every man for himself" attitude.
it's time to come together.
dang, even many churches, who are known for their philanthropy, ultimately rake in the dough.
it would be nice to see us truly extend ourselves, as the brothers and sisters we are, w/o having ulterior motives or perceived gains.

my rose-tinted glasses, i think, are blinding me.

leslie

Leslie - I understand what you are saying, but again, I have to stress that a person's destiny, whether black, white, or green is within their grasp - if they want to see it.

I have no problem with churches, philanthropic groups, etc. 'sharing their wealth'. I believe that many do. What I object to is the expectation that it's no longer voluntary - but required.

I know this is an old fable, but did you ever hear the one about the grasshopper and the ant? The ant works all summer to gather food and supplies, while the grasshopper plays? When the winter comes, the ant is cozy and warm, while the grasshopper, who has done nothing for himself, dies.

It's now changing - the ant still works, the grasshopper still plays - but when winter comes, the government wants to tell the ant that he must share with the grasshopper because the poor grasshopper has nothing. That is called socialism - and it's what our society is rapidly sliding into!!

Why DON'T these poor people have opportunities? Is it because they make the wrong decisions sometimes? Aside from the very affluent class - we all start out basically equal - with the chance to make our own opportunities, or to sink into a pit of self pity.

What I taught my children was this - "You can do anything YOU set your mind to. No one owes you anything. If you want it, find a way to achieve it." I don't consider that an 'every man for himself' attitude. I call it personal responsibility.

I can also tell you that my sons volunteer their time and money for various causes - because they feel that it's the 'right' thing to do, not because they are being made to do it.

[earle58]

bandit, you have my full admiration.
as i've stated, i admire those with the "can do" attitudes.
respectfully, i think you're talking ideals.
even though what you say is true re: personal responsibility, i find the 'can do' people in the minority.
these go-getters you speak of, are scattered throughout the social classes.
not everyone who is successful, is because of blood, sweat and tears.
my dtr is like that.
she has a vision, and goes right after it.
she amazes me.
and then there's me:
who fantasizes about everything i can and should be, but am not.
i suspect i represent the majority.
and i'm middle class.

to think those who are impoverished, can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, i think, are a minority.
for many, it takes more than a vision or dream.
if a federally or state-funded program is going to provide that hope, i'm all for it.
some will choose to remain where they are, as you say, absorbed in self-pity.
others will reach for their stars.

but let me close this with reiterating my admiration for people like you.
something that probably seems so simplistic to you, is what others dreams are made of.
if only we could achieve what we are plainly capable of.
thanks for the inspiration.

leslie

[banditrn]

Leslie - I'm NOT a star!! I'm just a simple old nurse! I never aspired to be anything other than a good bedside nurse!

Yes, I agree, that some people need help - those were the ones in my class in nursing school that I admired so - that went to school, worked two jobs, and raised kids - and maybe got food stamps and tuition help. I'm all for that. Those gals had a goal and didn't lose sight of it.

I'm a firm believer that hunger is a great motivator!

[hajiagambo]

di

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

I don't think that I have ever argued otherwise about fostering independence. If anything I have always argued for interventions designed to give families the job skills to earn a living wage. Families with real financial stability tend to have the resources to weather the storms of life. As I wrote earlier this posting was excerpted to show the fiscal impact of bad health care policy decisions and not to target any political viewpoint.

My own kids are soon to be out of our public school system. That doesn't mean I will vote against future school bonding proposals to improve instruction because my kids won't benefit. I will always advocate and vote to improve health care and education for kids because I believe that I have a responsibility to my community to help improve the chances for a more prosperous future.

I am also from a very poor background family, but I tried more than anyone will ever know to get to where I am today. However, that fact did not wipe out my compassion to want to help the needy.

[hajiagambo]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

The patient, mother of a month-old baby, was crying on the phone because for the past two days she had been tormented by head lice (Pediculosis capitis, if you really want to know). A simple problem, you might think--head lice is endemic among schoolchildren, as many a parent could tell you--and one that hardly needs a high-powered medical consultation. You just go to the drugstore, buy a bottle of Nix (permethrin) over the counter and spend a lot of time with that little plastic comb. But Nix costs $22.99, and this woman didn't have it. By then it was Saturday night, and the drugstores in her neighborhood were closed until Monday. Fortunately, there was an all-night pharmacy, so Michele prescribed her permethrin, which Medicaid would pay for. She does the same thing for women with yeast infections who can't afford $16 for the over-the-counter Monistat: She prescribes terazol (a much more expensive medication), which is covered by Medicaid.
You can see this incident as a tiny illustration of the penny-wise, pound-foolish complexities of our bizarre healthcare system, in which routine problems are treated as full-blown emergencies, and the government will pay for prescriptions but not over-the-counter medications that may be cheaper and work just as well. The President asserted that there's no healthcare crisis, because anyone can just go to the emergency room if they need care. He's wrong--ERs don't give ongoing or preventive treatment; they just patch you up in a crisis. But to the extent that ERs and free services like Yale's have become the family doctor or the CVS for low-income people, that is the problem, because they're incredibly expensive. This is the system its defenders claim we must keep because single-payer health insurance would bankrupt the nation.
...
Forget, too, the other things so necessary to good health that the rest of us take for granted. Fresh fruits and vegetables--try even finding these in an inner-city neighborhood. Clean air--poor neighborhoods are notoriously the most polluted. Safe streets. Housing in good repair. A life with no more than the ordinary amount of stress. Well, you'd be stressed out too if you couldn't afford to get rid of your head lice. What else can't Dr. Michele's patient afford if she can't afford that? Try school supplies and books for her child in a few years. Try vitamins and a good breakfast every morning.





Source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071008/pollitt accessed 10/1/07.

A VERY BIG THANKS TO YOU

[cmo421]

Ok, this is one of those discussions that will go round and round, we all have our experiences and beliefs,so no need to get nasty.
So for my two cents(ya got change?...lol) . Life is hard enough to deal with without being subjected to brick walls. Do we want to have two classes,rich and poverty stricken. One is born into a lifestyle. You grow only knowing what u r exposed to. It is a chain that sometimes never gets broken untill someone decides to intervene. Basic human rights are health care,food and shelter. Beyond that,it is what it is. Mentors are the changing factor in a persons life. Maybe if more people took it upon themselves to be a positive influence on someones life,more would change.
I was lucky ,I was born with a wooden spoon in my mouth,not rich,but far from poor. But we were raised to help not judge. We were raised to believe that we all deserved the same regardless of race,religion or social status. I worked for years in a very poor ,inner city hospital.The streets outside our windows ridden with homeless,drugs,prostitution and the likes. Yet when they came in the doors, they all where born with silver spoons in their mouth. Treatment and rights were the same.
The goverment today should bow there heads at the way they treat the poor. Offer the basics, provide mentors,offer education,set limits and see what happens. One person in a family breaking the cycle is enough to set off a chain reaction. So, just my two cents,and if ya have change ,I will take it,,,lol. Have agreat day all!

[withasmilelpn]

[quote=Jolie;2428257]Before you vilify politicians and taxpayers who are tired of funding entitlement after entitlement, how about demanding some personal responsibility? People shouldn't have children they can't reasonably afford to raise.[/quote
What about people who had well paying jobs and then lost them and their health insurance? Our family went through a patch like that, we made it through but just barely. Now we are better than ever.You need to remember that circumstances can change for anyone and that children are yours for 18+ years. A lot can happen in that time! I'm not going to judge anybody having lived it for myself.

[Jolie]

[quote=withasmilelpn;2432732]

Originally Posted by Jolie

Before you vilify politicians and taxpayers who are tired of funding entitlement after entitlement, how about demanding some personal responsibility? People shouldn't have children they can't reasonably afford to raise.[/quote
What about people who had well paying jobs and then lost them and their health insurance? Our family went through a patch like that, we made it through but just barely. Now we are better than ever.You need to remember that circumstances can change for anyone and that children are yours for 18+ years. A lot can happen in that time! I'm not going to judge anybody having lived it for myself.

Please read the entire thread. The exerpt posted below addresses your question, and can be found on page 1 of this thread. Quote from my own previous post:


Why is it offensive to expect people to live within their means? If one is not capable of raising a child, s/he should not have a child. Personal desire should NOT be the sole factor in making life's important decisions, especially when the consequences of those decisions will impact others (such as the child who will potentially be raised in poverty, and the fellow citizens who will be taxed to pay to pay for the child's living expenses). I am not talking about people who need temporary assistance due to job loss, or those who are permanently disabled due to injury, illness or advanced age. I am talking about able-bodied young men and women who have no job, no schooling, who rely on public and private assistance for their daily room and board, and yet choose to bring children into the world anyway.