[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by L P N to B

WHAT, EXACTLY, ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE WITH THIS LITTLE POST OF YOURS?

I moved on. I've mentioned more than once, and not in relation to you, that there is a distinct connection between marriage and escaping poverty. This was not linked to your quote, or about you, and was a return to the thread topic.

In actuality, I linked this site for a few reasons. First, the site has lots to say about poverty from a guy that's worked with the poor for years (actually, he says he was in prison for five yrs in his youth). I linked it so that others might go look at what he has to say, and I linked it so I would have a future reference point if I want to go back to it.

~faith,
Timothy.

[L P N to B]

ok thank you for clearing that up for me. i appreciate it.

[banditrn]

Originally Posted by earle58

i've been reading several poverty articles online.
many reflect timothy's sentiments-that marriage and 2 incomes will resolve the poverty in the u.s.
it is notable that most of those articles were written by a member of a Christian organization.

i found a series of articles:easy to read, different perspectives.
read pages 5-16.
ea page written by someone different.
one writer, a self-proclaimed spiritualist, essentially states, "if you think you are poor, then you are..."
of those deemed destitute, 46% are homeowners.
poverty in the u.s. cannot be compared to true, absolute poverty in third world countries...

http://www.helium.com/tm/88881/unite...rtywe-millions

leslie

leslie - that is very true - I don't think many people here understand what TRUE poverty is all about.

For a lot of people it's if they can't afford cable, a computer or air conditioning. Here in the USA we have so many services that will move in and help - from community food banks and churches to welfare and food stamps.

When my kids first left home they were horrified to learn that they had to PAY for services that they had always taken for granted before!

All of that beats sleeping on a dirt floor with multiple other people and not having any idea when you might eat again.

[nursemike]

I hesitate to jump in at this late point, but I do have some things to say about poverty and "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps." Been there, done that.Like many poor people, I was the victim of both bad luck and my own poor choices. Some of those poor choices, I think, were due to depression over bad luck; others were due to inadequate information. I had a chance to go to college when I was 19, but I didn't know much about funding an education, so I tried to work my way through. I tend to describe that period as a lot of drinking and partying, and it was, but a lot of that was trying to escape the underlying stress.
So, anyway, I screwed up, flunked out, and became a carpenter. Made a decent living, at times, but I don't have a good head for business, and the building trades are notoriously volatile. Rich one day, broke the next--you really, really, really need to have an "ant" mentality if you want to be self-employed! I didn't.
Eventually, found myself praying to God to help me figure out a way to make a decent, reliable income as I crumpled up yet another losing lottery ticket. Saw an ad for a job fair, and went to it.I applied for two pretty crappy jobs, thinking that working either for a couple of years would at least show a future perspective employer that I could work for someone else, show up on time, etc. Then I saw a line for our local hospital. Long line. Notoriously hard place to get hired. Thought I might as well give it a shot, since I had nothing better to do. Finally came to a place on the app asking for three references. WTH!!? I didn't have three past employers. Had worked in a McDonalds, years ago...could I use my customers as references?
Then I remembered the old saw: it's not what you know, but who you know. Several of my past customers had connections to the hospital, so I put them down.Got hired for what some would call a rather menial job, part housekeeper, part escort. Didn't pay a lot, but paid every two weeks. Part time, to start, but a foot in the door, and it wasn't like I'd been making a lot more as a carpenter. Much easier to budget when you know what you'll be making, and I did soon get more hours. It also turned out that I just loved that job. Got to spend way more time than I'd expected caring for pts, since a lot of my co-workers didn't care much for pt contact.I decided to go to nursing school.
I was 45 yrs old, had no extra money, bad grades from my first attempt, and wicked SAT scores. Those SAT's didn't erase my bad grades, but the nursing advisor took a look at them and was real helpful with advising me how to bring my grades up to qualify for admission. Took some classes, paid for them myself, then got admitted. Got student loans, partial grants, tuition assistance from work, cut my hours back, and worked like a dog to get through school.
Now I'm a nurse. I make a decent living--in adjusted dollars, about as well as I ever did as a carpenter, and way better than most years. Plus, it pays every two weeks. I've been "broke" once, since taking that UAP job, and that was during school. I'm not living like a king, but I drive a new car, take vacations (rather than lay-offs) and never have a problem meeting my basic expenses.
My point is not to brag. I'm a little proud of myself, to be honest, but mostly, I feel I've been fortunate. At times, it has appeared to me that God wanted me to be a nurse. Or, at least, that's what I've told myself when that outcome seemed doubtful. I do see my recent history as an example of the Lord helping someone who was willing to take steps to help himself. And, of course, I'm sure glad I didn't have to rely on Government assitance to do it. (Other than the federally guaranteed student loans, state and federal grants, and a job in the public sector, I mean.)
My point is, my experience seems to support both sides of this argument. You won't get anywhere sitting around complaining about how bad things are. Even God seems unwilling just to hand you a living. But I do think few, if any, can do it entirely on their own. I think the present welfare system tends to foster dependance, but the answer isn't getting rid of welfare--it's spending the money in smarter ways, helping people see ways to help themselves and assisting them to do so.We all make mistakes, and we all make poor choices at times. Once in a great while, we skate, but usually we pay for them. Some of us are able to pay and go on, but some end up paying their whole lives. I see no reason why a kid who fails to apply himself in high school should have to suffer for it forever. Why not give that kid a chance to redeem himself in a vocational school or college? Why not give single moms in poverty some help with the basics and some guidance toward independence?
I guess I agree with the conservative view, that making excuses for people in need tends to keep them in need, but I think there needs to be a way that the price of making bad choices isn't a life of misery. I'm a middle aged bachelor with feline dependents, but when a poor family in Harlem or a single mom in L.A. gets a chance, it makes my life slightly better. Enough such stories could make all our lives quite a bit better.
Years ago, Atty. Gen. Ed Meese declared that no one was going hungry in America.An article in Scientific American investigated that assertion and found that it had been essentially true, until the Reagan administration came in. In many ways, the War on Poverty has been about as successful as the War on Drugs, or as I fear the War on Terror will be. Government has a long history of blowing it, but I believe one of the reasons is that they tend to go at everything in a half-hearted (observing allnurses TOS) manner. If we fought the second World War the way we fought the wars on poverty/drugs/terrorism, we'd be living in a much more ordely society where the trains always run on time.

[pickledpepperRN]

I am not interested in arguing numbers.
Many people live without even a place to sleep. In my experience anecdotally at least half the men are veterans.

Most are mentally ill and/or addicted to one or more substances. Many are not able to carry on a conversation. Once in a while I volunteer to take BP and educate people at the Union Rescue Mission.

A couple months ago a young man asked for a bandage. He had a black and white ankle wound to the bone. He said, "I don't want it to get infected."
It took nearly an hour to persuade him to go to the county clinic. When we called to make an appointment they told us he had waited for several hours but when his name was called he was gone.

SO a nurse accompanied this mentally challenged young veteran to the clinic, taught him as much as possible about his diabetes, and gave report to mission staff too. This guy is waiting for the VA to contact him and he doesn't even have an address! He does have a healed indented scar on the side of his head.

The problem with us volunteers is we have jobs and families. We don't follow up. People like this fall through the cracks.
I seem to remember in the '60s & '70s guys like this lived at the VA for a long time.

I know many people do become self supporting.
Unfortunately others are leaving the military or foster care and end up on the street.

Homeless count finds fewer in Los Angeles County

The number of homeless in Los Angeles County dropped 17 percent over the past two years - and was down more than 40 percent in the San Fernando Valley alone, according to a report released Thursday.

But while Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority officials said their biennual count found the estimated number of people homeless on any given day dropped from 88,345 to 73,000, many questioned the findings...

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_7152394.

[earle58]

spacenurse,

i could relate to the homeless who stated they lived on private property.

yrs ago, my husband found the entrance to our basement opened, and it had looked like someone had been in there.
nothing was taken, but we were alerted from thereonin.

it started out with a homeless woman (w/child) seeking shelter in our heated basement.
we had an old mattress on the floor, and she had used our home to find warmth.

after discussing it, we allowed this to continue.
we even bought a mini-fridge and stocked it.
within 1 month, there were other homeless people seeking refuge in our basement.
we were restocking the fridge on a daily basis.
i added clean linens to the old mattress, along w/blankets.
we cleaned up excrement outside the door.

our neighbors started complaining, about the traffic and the "element" in and out of our house.
police came to investigate and referred them to a homeless shelter downtown.
one homeless person ended up taking a twin stroller he found in our basement.
it didn't bother me as much as it bothered hubby.
he's very concerned about what the neighbors think.
so it ended.

i can promise you, that if i were wealthier, i would indeed, adopt a family and put the parent(s) through school.
during this time, i would provide shelter, food, money for transportation, etc.

as a rich country, there is a lot we can individually and collectively do, to lend a hand-up.
our welfare system is not working.
it breeds hopelessness and apathy-the exact opposite of what is needed to be productive.
i'd like to believe others who are in a position to do so, are actually getting involved to help those in need.
but my cynicism remains.
if anything, i have seen those with little in life, who are generous with their concern and anything they can do to help.
i personally think the upper class is far removed and disinterested in those who are impoverished.
contributing a $25 donation to your favorite charity, just doesn't cut the cheese.

simply stating that all should get married and work full time, is simplistic and overtly idealistic.
this philosophy is operating under a huge assumption, that everyone has the opportunity and props, to pursue healthy relationships and to work full time.
this does not address the addictions or the mental health issues that run rampant in our society.
i don't know the answer.
but i know my dreams...
that we all become proactive with those less fortunate than us.
in giving of ourselves, we can pull one to stand upright, and help them in attaining independence and self-worth.
it not only helps the one in need, but makes them a meaningful contributor in society.
win-win all around.

leslie

[marikat534]

I want to jump in this conversation because I grew up in a family that was middle class with 3 children. I remember being told I couldn't have things because it cost too much and my family struggling. Yet, we were deemed to rich for financial aid that would help us go through college. It was frustrating.

I went to college on student loans. I have worked the equivalence of 80 hours a week at one job while going full time to school. I had no life and it was hard watching my friends going out and having fun. After I passed my NCLEX-RN I got hired at a local nursing home, and started working.

A month later, still in my probation period, I became very sick and was not able to work for several weeks. I did not have any accumulated personal leave or sick time yet (they waited for 3 months) luckily they did start health insurance the first day you start work. Either way, I was in a bad place, because I could not and did not work for 7 weeks and things became tight. I had to get a personal loan to pay the remaining hospital fees and support myself until I started a new job.

I was a nurse and this happened to me. The things they say are not supposed to happen. I did everything I was supposed to and still was financially screwed. Luckily I was able to pick up hours until I started a new job, but I am still recovering financially from the financial mistakes I made and debts I occurred from then.

I am not poor, but I am not rich. I am middle class. We cannot qualify for medicaid/medicare so we are left just to figure it out on our own. Something has to give.

[Tragur]

A new study released by Columbia concludes that poverty is so deleterious to health that even the simplest tweaks in our educational system produce better health effects than anything we can do regarding access to health care. In this case, reducing elementary school class sizes by 20% is the single best return for our health care dollars. Education = wealth = health.

[vetnrse]

obviously the president has never had to experience even comming close to going without, because there is not even a dollar in the house. yes, ignorant describes him best. (well I could think of a few other words too, but we'll just bypass that for now)

[vetnrse]

Unfortunately,this describes many Indian Reservations very well, which are in themselves true third world nations within this country. People have no acsess to help, no money for gas, and usually no car.Away from cities 100 miles away , every day is a constant struggle.Sad part is, most people dont know they exist in the state they are in , and if they do, they have no idea how to help. Government conveniently swept them 'under the rug'. The locations, history of the tribes and current reservation situations should be in the school curriculums as standard as the civil war etc...