[cmo421]

Originally Posted by lionrn

Hey gang, there's a reason we don't yell and lecture at our Pt's: it doesn't work.
Why do you think it's going to be any more effective here?

Why are you moralizing and lecturing at our colleague, who has put her story out to us asking for understanding and support?

It may be wonderful that your ethical system works so well for you, but are you truly so fundamentalist that you cannot even tolerate any of the rest of us at a different stage of our process? If so, why are you posting here?

Whacking your kids just makes new trauma.

Please cut it out.

No one more then me tends to react first and think later. I do not think that anyone here really meant to lecture or offend. I feel that some peoples have very strong personal values and opinions. Hence why we have a forum to share them. We all get carried away at times and preach to the preacher. I do not share some peoples opinions, but I try to read and at some point really think about whats behind the forcefull writing. It is through all these different views of life that we learn. It is so great that we have the internet to use,how else would we know how so many others live and deal in our country and world ? Tolerance of each other, within reason, will help us absorb ,process, and then take what we want from each other perspectives and learn from them.

[banditrn]

Originally Posted by caroladybelle

First, many of us HAVE had it "rough". And we dealt with /deal with and gotten out by improving the decisions that we make and by changing our behavior.

Second, it is not "compassionate" to continue to prop up poor decision making. That just perpetuates the problem. If people continue to be supported no matter how good or bad the situation, they have no reason to change the behaviors that are leading to their poverty.

Third, no one is "looking down" on people. Trying to aid them in better decision making is important so that they can get out of poverty if they wish, so they can feel better about themselves.

There are consequences to actions... this is the only way that people learn to be responsible. If one does not want to deal with the consequences, don't do the actions.

Smart lady!!

As I've said before - I saw some girls in school with me go thru so much just to get a decent education. Working, going to school, taking care of kids alone - these are the people that I would like to see get all the help they need - because you knew that soon they'd be out there working.

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by lionrn

Whacking your kids just makes new trauma.

Please cut it out.

Very well stated...

[L P N to B]

ok well THANK YOU to all the people who understood what i was trying to say. and to you people who have nothing better to do than to tell me how i made my bed and now lay in it (like i dont already know) you are EXTREMELY IGNORANT. HALF OF YOU COMPLETELY missed what i was saying.

LET ME CLARIFY: by exposing HALF of my life to you people and putting my personal business WAY out there for EVERYONE TO SEE all i was doing was telling the ones who HAVE HAD IT ROUGH that i understand where they are coming from, and to the ones who STILL have it rough to keep their heads up.

the ones who lashed out at me with "such strong moral values" and words of, what YOU would like to call, "advice" need to take a step down from your righteous, preaching pedestal. if you think for one second that i am blaming ANYONE for whats going on in my life, you are sadly mistaken. if you think that iam looking for PITY, EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, or whatever else you want to think, again, im sorry to say, but you are sadly mistaken.

and

as to THIS comment: First, many of us HAVE had it "rough". And we dealt with /deal with and gotten out by improving the decisions that we make and by changing our behavior.

i am happy for you. and i mean it from the bottom of my heart. it takes alot to be strong enough to make it thru hard times. to want to give up at times but knowing it wont do you any good. congratulations and i wish the best in life for you.

Second, it is not "compassionate" to continue to prop up poor decision making. That just perpetuates the problem. If people continue to be supported no matter how good or bad the situation, they have no reason to change the behaviors that are leading to their poverty.

i am sure EVERYONE agrees with this. i was not saying to be compassionate towards their decision making. i was saying try to be a little more compassionate towards the people who REALIZE their mistakes and are trying DESPERATELY to fix them.

Third, no one is "looking down" on people. Trying to aid them in better decision making is important so that they can get out of poverty if they wish, so they can feel better about themselves.

if this is 100% true. maybe certain people should learn how to rephrase their responses. now i understand we are on the computer and things can easily be misinterpreted, there is no way to tell if the things we are reading would actually be SAID the way we are taking them. THIS is why i have given the benefit of the doubt to a few comments, but at the same time its hard to feel as if you are not "looking down on anyone" when things have become SO personal.


and THIS,

There is a very good alternative. It is called adoption and many very "responsible" parents utilize it.
i am sorry, i agree, to a point. i, personally could not have carried my children for 40 weeks, listening to their tiny heart beats and feeling every little growing movement inside of my body to let them go to some stranger. when i am saying i am going through hard times, it doesnt mean i have sacrificed my children of ANYTHING. when i found out i was pregnant i had my options. i AM "responsible". yes i chose to raise my babies. yes. i chose to struggle. yes i chose to raise my babies. I WOULDNT HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY. if it means being broke for the rest of my life, and making personal sacrifices SO BE IT. these, my children, are NOT "unfortunate circumstances" THEY are the reason i starightened my life OUT and i am heading in the direction i am heading in. THESE children are BLESSINGS.

i am not as hard-headed to think i can change anyone's opinions, nor do i want to in ANY WAY. we are ALL entitled to feel the way we feel and to believe the things we do. i am by NO means a saint lol and i also can be EXTREMELY opinionated myself. i welcome everyones views and definitely try to see where they are coming from, but at the same time, i DO expect the same in return.THERE IS NO HARM IN TRYING TO BE A LITTLE MORE OPEN-MINDED.

thank you for taking the time to read and i wish you all the best.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by L P N to B

THERE IS NO HARM IN TRYING TO BE A LITTLE MORE OPEN-MINDED.

There is harm in being open-minded when it involves decision making that lead to poverty.

To the extent anything was personal, it was, as you suggest, because you put your story out there.

You started your first post on the subject by directly replying to MY comment that poverty is a choice. You attempted to demonstrate, using your own example, how this is not the case.

In this last post, you admit that your circumstances are defined by your choices. THEN, you express regret because people 'looked down at you' because of those choices. You missed the point, however. The point wasn't to examine your past decisions in a negative tone. The point was to point out, to you, that if your decisions can lead you to where you are, then future decisions can lead you someplace else.

There is no power in chalking everything up to unfortunate circumstances. Power comes in ownership. If you own your choices, then you can choose to make better ones.

I've said this to you twice before, but I will say it again. I wish you well. More to the point, I hope that your future choices lead only upward.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

http://www.gerrycharlottephelps.com/...rty/index.html

"Now it is well known, however, that the most reliable predictor of poverty is fatherlessness. Fatherlessness is what is most likely to make children grow up poor. And since the great majority of the poor are in fatherless families, fatherlessness is also responsible for most of the poverty in America.

For poor adults, the results of sex outside marriage are horrendous. For a majority of unmarried mothers, poverty is the result. Never-married mothers are also poorer as a group than widowed or divorced mothers."

"We now know that fatherlessness is not only the most reliable predictor of poverty, but also of violent crime. Mapping neighborhoods and city blocks by the percentage of fatherless households has been found the most reliable way to predict the location of the most violent crime in any city."

"Most of all, why has there been so much silence about the stupefyingly obvious connection between unmarried sex, and fatherless children and families? It is almost as if it were invisible, as if we had a gene that blocked us from seeing it."

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

http://www.gerrycharlottephelps.com/...rty/index.html

"The poor have choices too. Some of these choices have a big effect on whether they become poor, and whether they stay poor. Even when their choices are limited, they still count. They still can make the difference between a better life and a worse one, and between staying in poverty or moving "up and out."

Non-poor people face many of the choices that poor people face. But for the poor, a bad choice is usually more harmful. It is not that the poor are more to blame for bad choices, but that they pay a higher price, because they have fewer resources to fall back on when they do. So making good choices and avoiding bad ones is even more crucial for the poor.

It is not that we cannot change course later in life. People do every day. But it is much more difficult then. It involves trying to catch up with where we might have been if our youthful choices had been better. And it also involves cleaning up the mess we left by bad choices."

~faith,
Timothy.

[L P N to B]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

There is harm in being open-minded when it involves decision making that lead to poverty.

To the extent anything was personal, it was, as you suggest, because you put your story out there.

You started your first post on the subject by directly replying to MY comment that poverty is a choice. You attempted to demonstrate, using your own example, how this is not the case.

In this last post, you admit that your circumstances are defined by your choices. THEN, you express regret because people 'looked down at you' because of those choices. You missed the point, however. The point wasn't to examine your past decisions in a negative tone. The point was to point out, to you, that if your decisions can lead you to where you are, then future decisions can lead you someplace else.

There is no power in chalking everything up to unfortunate circumstances. Power comes in ownership. If you own your choices, then you can choose to make better ones.

I've said this to you twice before, but I will say it again. I wish you well. More to the point, I hope that your future choices lead only upward.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by L P N to B

Exactly.

Smile.

~faith,
Timothy.

[L P N to B]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

http://www.gerrycharlottephelps.com/...rty/index.html

"Now it is well known, however, that the most reliable predictor of poverty is fatherlessness. Fatherlessness is what is most likely to make children grow up poor. And since the great majority of the poor are in fatherless families, fatherlessness is also responsible for most of the poverty in America.

For poor adults, the results of sex outside marriage are horrendous. For a majority of unmarried mothers, poverty is the result. Never-married mothers are also poorer as a group than widowed or divorced mothers."

"We now know that fatherlessness is not only the most reliable predictor of poverty, but also of violent crime. Mapping neighborhoods and city blocks by the percentage of fatherless households has been found the most reliable way to predict the location of the most violent crime in any city."

"Most of all, why has there been so much silence about the stupefyingly obvious connection between unmarried sex, and fatherless children and families? It is almost as if it were invisible, as if we had a gene that blocked us from seeing it."

~faith,
Timothy.

WHAT, EXACTLY, ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE WITH THIS LITTLE POST OF YOURS?