[Ruby Vee]

Originally Posted by Nurseynurseyme

I haven't read the entire string here but I have to say that I am kind of horrified by the willingness to rip this nurse apart. Everyone seems so defensive!

What she said about triage was that they didn't smile or express concern.

Everyone is writing about how busy they are and it wasn't life threatening and so she had to wait, and so forth. How long does it take for you to smile and be kind? Is that too much to ask? She is the concerned family, scared, worried, maybe feeling guilty about not diagnosing her kid correctly herself at the git go and everyone in here is just ripping her up. (Yes I know that is a generalization, but you get the point).

When you deal with the public in this profession they are likely to be emotional because of the situation. We are supposed to be understanding. Passing udgment on her because she wasn't polite enough is just outrageous.

If I was in the hospital with my suffering child and I saw a bunch of nurses chatting and snacking instead of making sure the patients didn't need anything I would be offended too.

Those activities should be done out of view of patients. If you don't get your breaks or you can't nick someplace quickly to eat your burrito then that is a problem for you to take up with your management rather than being defensive and angry at a patient's family for the perception you give off; especially if you were not kind or informative at triage. These patients are not pieces of meat! They have feelings! They are scared and they have nothing better to do that watch you for a sign that someone is coming soon to help them!

If my family member is sitting in the hospital and not being bathed and waiting eons for call lights to be answered and the nurses were sitting around chatting and snacking I would be righteously furious and likely so would each one of you.

Deciding that a patient's condition is not important enough to be seen within several hours based upon nursing observations is not necessarily good nursing care. Since this patient had a ruptured appendix, this could very well have gone south very quickly.

Why are we so willing to rip one another up? why are we so willing to blame the patient or the patient's family for what seem to be reasonable things? Is simple human kindness and providing information such a high expectation that we cannot meet it? Is it because we are a primarily female profession?

Someone upthread commented that physicians do not do this. I wish we could be more understanding too. If we are unhappy with our working conditions then there are proactive things we can spend our energy on rather than kvetching about our patients and eachother.

If you haven't read the whole thread, then you aren't really qualified to comment on the nature of the replies. You haven't read them.

And far as the triage nurses -- she commented that they were "efficient but soulless." One wonders whether she would have considered smiles inappropriate, and how much of their souls this woman expected those nurses to bleed. I have to admit that were I confronted by a woman as self-centered and obnoxious as this woman has revealed herself to be I doubt I'd be feeling much like smiling at her, and I'm wondering if you wouldn't feel the same. And the question remains -- is simple human kindness and providing information something that this writer would see as adequate proof of caring? Or would she demand more? The first nurse she approved of was the one who brought the narcotics.

This woman is bashing her entire profession. But you take it a step further and bash an entire gender. It boggles the mind.

[ERTraumaJunkie]

Originally Posted by Ruby Vee

And if her former students are inadequate practitioners to care for her precious daughter, why in the world did she pass them? Does she not bear some responsibility for these "inadequate practitioners" being inflicted on the public? Perhaps they had inadequate instructors.

You know, I've wondered that myself. My nursing instructor told us the first day of school she only passed students she would trust with herself or her loved ones. And she proceeded to prove it as she weeded out nurses she deemed incapable. And the last day of class, she told us that she would be proud to have each and every one of us take care of her if need be. God forbid that day happen, cause that woman was a b*tch on wheels, but a darn good teacher. Maybe Mrs. Madsen needs to align her own teaching standards against those she expects us to perform against as nurses. And make sure you finish you day without eating or peeing, Mrs. M!

[Nurseynurseyme]

Originally Posted by Ruby Vee

If you haven't read the whole thread, then you aren't really qualified to comment on the nature of the replies. You haven't read them. I don't need to read every single comment in order to comment on a few, I did read the article AND the follow up which is more than some of you have done.

And far as the triage nurses -- she commented that they were "efficient but soulless." Yes, efficient and soulless. However you interpreted that to mean that she herself was "self-centered, entitled and obnoxious". So it seems that a smile and some kindness is more than she could expect from you, and in order to respond and (wonder of wonders) disagree with some of the cruel and insensitive comments in here I have to be qualified. How holier than thou of you.
One wonders whether she would have considered smiles inappropriate, and how much of their souls this woman expected those nurses to bleed. So then asking for a smile from you means you have to bleed? I have to admit that were I confronted by a woman as self-centered and obnoxious as this woman has revealed herself to be I doubt I'd be feeling much like smiling at her And your feelings are what is most important then...so who is self centered now? The patient and the family going through some sort of crisis or the professional nurse?, and I'm wondering if you wouldn't feel the same. And the question remains -- is simple human kindness and providing information something that this writer would see as adequate proof of caring? Well since that was the point of her article, yes. Or would she demand more? The first nurse she approved of was the one who brought the narcotics. TO RELIEVE THE PAIN OF THE PATIENT. Or in your mind is she now drug seeking?

This woman is bashing her entire profession. But you take it a step further and bash an entire gender. It boggles the mind.

I'm not bashing the entire gender, there is a thread in her about mobbing. Perhaps you might take a look at it, but be sure to read the entire thread before you comment to make sure you're qualified.

This article was not a personal insult. Unless of course you think the patients are there to interrupt your very busy day. They are the reason you are there. Expecting some kindness and some concern when the patient is not reassessed in the EMERGENCY ROOM after concerns are expressed after several hours is not asking you to bleed your soul all over them.

The comment about being "one of those mothers" doesn't mean she is the antichrist. It means she is present and concerned about her family member and the nursing profession hates them as a rule; yet we comment again and again to not leave our family members alone in a hospital because of uneven care. So then when she does that, and she asks for normal courtesies like a smile or someone to act like they actually give a hoot a bunch of people in here act like she's asking for the moon.

You are attributing all kinds of negative motivations and comments at this woman with a sick child and God help you if you were in her shoes.

[hjwdancer]

Short and to the point:

The case of Ms. Madsen strikes a core with us because it is unprofessional. As a nurse, I take pride in my professionalism and unbiased treatment of others. I would not publish an article on the internet- which is a very public place- that lambasts my colleagues to the public. If I had such a negative experience, I only pray that I use it as a catalyst to write a professional, well researched article that would help produce a change.

If I want to vent about a negative experience with colleagues I will do so here in a nursing related forum- while this is still a public venue, it is not addressed to the general public and I would defend that position if a journalist picked up my blog/reponses to publish.

[Nurseynurseyme]

Thank you hjwdancer for sharing your point of view. I understand what you are saying and I actually don't disagree; but what I don't understand is that even in here things are public and anyone can cut and paste it to a more public forum.

This article that has people so up in arms about is a nursing ezine! So I suppose it isn't all that different from this forum. The way it got national coverage is via a blog by someone that writes for US NEWS on their website! We don't even know if she approved of his publication of her words in his blog. In fact, her words were published in here by someone else.

I feel kind of beat up by nurses who are so upset I guess because they feel she is being unfaithful to the profession but she did it in a nursing forum, she didn't write her state board of nursing. And I for one perceived it as only that we could all be nicer to people and try to keep in mind how we are being perceived and how the patients feel. It's hard to work in a fishbowl and be dealing with peoples' lives and do the right thing all of the time. I personally think that there is room for improvement in the way of common decency and simple kindnesses and empathy. I know some of the patients are awful but when we let the few bad apples affect our demeanor and we start making vast generalities about all patients being a pain then that is going over a line, I think.

She had some valid points but I don't see people being fair and balanced with HER; so even if commenters in here felt she was unfair then some people are being very similar in regards to Nurse Madsen as they apparently feel she was!

I don't see myself sitting in an ER with my acutely ill kid and seeing nurses sit and laugh at off color jokes while I wait for 4 hours and not even coming to reassess in several hours being very patient. I certainly will NOT be shutting up and sitting down in a corner because I'm afraid of making the nurses angry as opposed to trying to get my kid some treatment! What if his vitals changed a great deal? Would anyone have noticed? It didn't seem as though anyone was paying attention to her. Or at least that was her perception.

So some of the comments in here are scaring me.

I know we're all overworked and overwhelmed, but at what point is it not ok to blame the patient?

I dont' want to start a flame war, I don't want you all to jump all over me, I am just trying to get a dialogue going and I feel like I'm getting beat up for being a patient advocate.

At this point I don't see that I'm making much of a diffderence so I'm going to let it drop and move on. I just hope that I dont' get as bitter as some of the people in here sound. This is so discouraging.

[Ruby Vee]

Originally Posted by Nurseynurseyme

Yes, efficient and soulless. However you interpreted that to mean that she herself was "self-centered, entitled and obnoxious". So it seems that a smile and some kindness is more than she could expect from you, and in order to respond and (wonder of wonders) disagree with some of the cruel and insensitive comments in here I have to be qualified. How holier than thou of you.
One wonders whether she would have considered smiles inappropriate, and how much of their souls this woman expected those nurses to bleed. So then asking for a smile from you means you have to bleed? I have to admit that were I confronted by a woman as self-centered and obnoxious as this woman has revealed herself to be I doubt I'd be feeling much like smiling at her And your feelings are what is most important then...so who is self centered now? The patient and the family going through some sort of crisis or the professional nurse?, and I'm wondering if you wouldn't feel the same. And the question remains -- is simple human kindness and providing information something that this writer would see as adequate proof of caring? Well since that was the point of her article, yes. Or would she demand more? The first nurse she approved of was the one who brought the narcotics. TO RELIEVE THE PAIN OF THE PATIENT. Or in your mind is she now drug seeking?

This woman is bashing her entire profession. But you take it a step further and bash an entire gender. It boggles the mind.



I'm not bashing the entire gender, there is a thread in her about mobbing. Perhaps you might take a look at it, but be sure to read the entire thread before you comment to make sure you're qualified.

This article was not a personal insult. Unless of course you think the patients are there to interrupt your very busy day. They are the reason you are there. Expecting some kindness and some concern when the patient is not reassessed in the EMERGENCY ROOM after concerns are expressed after several hours is not asking you to bleed your soul all over them.

The comment about being "one of those mothers" doesn't mean she is the antichrist. It means she is present and concerned about her family member and the nursing profession hates them as a rule; yet we comment again and again to not leave our family members alone in a hospital because of uneven care. So then when she does that, and she asks for normal courtesies like a smile or someone to act like they actually give a hoot a bunch of people in here act like she's asking for the moon.

You are attributing all kinds of negative motivations and comments at this woman with a sick child and God help you if you were in her shoes.

If you haven't read all of the replies, you're not qualified to bash on the pages and pages of replies you HAVEN'T read. If you want to comment on the original post, or on the article that engendered it, OK. If you wish to address specific replies, OK. But you aren't qualified to comment on the tenor of all of the replies if you haven't read them all. And yes, I will have read all replies if I'm commenting on them all.

On the subject of smiles -- you get more of them if you're pleasant than you do if you're a pain in the rear. If the nurses caring for her child were efficiently going about their duties and trying to get help for her, it seems rather insensitive for HER to insist that they smile while doing so. After all, the child was in agony. Perhaps if they HAD smiled, she would have blasted them for inappropriate cheer. The only nurse she mentioned by name is the ER nurse who brought the narcotics. The rest of them were callous, insensitive and inappropriately seeking food. (I don't know about you, but I need food to survive. If I cannot get to the cafeteria to get some, ordering some in is not inappropriate.) Has it escaped your attention that nurses don't bring narcotics unless someone ordered them? So instead of bashing on the triage nurses who started that ball rolling, perhaps she could have been grateful.

Ms. Madsen not only admits to being a pain in the rear, she's BRAGGING about it. ("I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it.") Therefore, I conclude that she's entitled, self-centered and obnoxious. She expresses wonder that the nurses never yelled at her. That to me indicates that not only was she being an ass, she knew she was being an ass and did in anyway. She admits that she was one of "THOSE" mothers; she brags about it even. That goes beyond being a "present and concerned family member." Interesting, though, that you should state that the entire nursing profession hates "present and concerned family members." There's a difference between present and concerned and obnoxious. I'm wondering if you get that. I'm thinking probably not.

When you make a negative comment about nursing and attribute the cause to "it's a female profession," that's bashing not only a profession but a gender. I'm sorry that you don't get that, I'm sorry that you have such negative feelings about the profession and the gender. Mostly I'm sorry that you don't seem to Get. It. Period.

[Michigan RN]

Originally Posted by Ruby Vee

If you haven't read all of the replies, you're not qualified to bash on the pages and pages of replies you HAVEN'T read. If you want to comment on the original post, or on the article that engendered it, OK. If you wish to address specific replies, OK. But you aren't qualified to comment on the tenor of all of the replies if you haven't read them all. And yes, I will have read all replies if I'm commenting on them all.

On the subject of smiles -- you get more of them if you're pleasant than you do if you're a pain in the rear. If the nurses caring for her child were efficiently going about their duties and trying to get help for her, it seems rather insensitive for HER to insist that they smile while doing so. After all, the child was in agony. Perhaps if they HAD smiled, she would have blasted them for inappropriate cheer. The only nurse she mentioned by name is the ER nurse who brought the narcotics. The rest of them were callous, insensitive and inappropriately seeking food. (I don't know about you, but I need food to survive. If I cannot get to the cafeteria to get some, ordering some in is not inappropriate.) Has it escaped your attention that nurses don't bring narcotics unless someone ordered them? So instead of bashing on the triage nurses who started that ball rolling, perhaps she could have been grateful.

Ms. Madsen not only admits to being a pain in the rear, she's BRAGGING about it. ("I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it.") Therefore, I conclude that she's entitled, self-centered and obnoxious. She expresses wonder that the nurses never yelled at her. That to me indicates that not only was she being an ass, she knew she was being an ass and did in anyway. She admits that she was one of "THOSE" mothers; she brags about it even. That goes beyond being a "present and concerned family member." Interesting, though, that you should state that the entire nursing profession hates "present and concerned family members." There's a difference between present and concerned and obnoxious. I'm wondering if you get that. I'm thinking probably not.

When you make a negative comment about nursing and attribute the cause to "it's a female profession," that's bashing not only a profession but a gender. I'm sorry that you don't get that, I'm sorry that you have such negative feelings about the profession and the gender. Mostly I'm sorry that you don't seem to Get. It. Period.

Yeah well, Mrs. Maden can bite me.

[Michigan RN]

Originally Posted by Nurseynurseyme

I do not see in her narrative that she felt entitled or threw a "hissy fit"

I'm afraid I am going to disagree with you. Did you read the whole narrative? Because she stated "I wanted what I wanted and wanted it now". She threw a hissy fit. She admits that. I have no respect for her.

Don't know how one could over look that.

[MAISY, RN-ER]

Originally Posted by Nurseynurseyme

I dont' want to start a flame war, I don't want you all to jump all over me, I am just trying to get a dialogue going and I feel like I'm getting beat up for being a patient advocate.

Unfortunately, the boat keeps sailing without you.....none of us is saying that we shouldn't be patient advocates. What Karen did is ultimately throw a whole profession under the bus, her child was treated like every other person in the ER. The difference, is as a nurse, if her acuity was changed, or anything had changed in her condition....she should've known better than to just sit there-the triage nurses should've been notified! Apparently, she wanted what she wanted....but not in the ER. She needed to be the patient advocate-AT THAT TIME AND PLACE. Obviously, she wasn't.

I have a very hard time believing her account...., but then again she wasn't clear on the situation....were there a 100 or so patients sitting there or 5....was the ER a 20 bed or 50+....is it a teaching hospital, trauma center or rural......were the triage nurses former students? (just kidding)....there were a lot of unanswered questions....except for, oh yeah...the nurses weren't nice.

If you are scared that's a good thing. Hospitals are very scary places. No one is safe....the best nurses for care are ICU/CCU/Hospice....why? Their entire practice is driven by small ratios, and individualized care. There is no other place in the hospital where anything is 100%.....so advocate for yourself, family, and those who aren't strong enough to do it for themselves. Be afraid of the system.....be afraid that bad things happen to good people....be afraid that nurse and patient ratios, it's impossible to see someone within the hour (sometimes)---sixty minutes is a loooong time when you are vomiting, can't breathe, or reach a call bell! There is alot to be afraid of......but it should be the lack of nursing care due to the demands of our job, not because we don't want to do it!

Maisy

[december]

I've been following this thread from the start and was torn from the beginning. Torn because I realize every patient and family member had a right to report where they're coming from but this one was from a fellow nurse.

I wish we weren't our own worst enemy, as this nurse's rendition, due to lack of information/education proved out. I have recently (as a 30 year veteran RN) been traveling to the ER to help out. It's a battle zone, a wild-west, an area I knew I'd never want to work and it's been confirmed by my recent trips there. They are the front-lines in an impossible position. My 14 bed ER is now a 20 bed (with Hallway stretchers marked as sites) ER/Inpatient unit with the same number of nurses to man it, and that is 3-4 nurses.

I'm struck by the difference in tone and good-will by this writer's dialogue on this thread and the recent write-up by a lay-person/reporter on this forum...
http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/new...es-294351.html

It's a different thread, but same forum.

For anyone who has not taken a look, the writer of the link I provided deserves a whole-hearted thank-you for "getting it" unlike the author of this thread. I defend her right to report but as a nurse, she should have known sooooo much more.