[Q.]

Originally Posted by male lpn

the posts from the individuals who carry the title of bsn have forgotten from where it was they came and is very sad. .

I guess I don't get this statement. I went directly into a BSN program from high school and didn't really "come" from anywhere.

[Jessy_RN]

All I can say is wow, some statements and people's views fog my mind. Here I am pondering if I am wasting my time trying to pursue a career in nursing. Not to sound discouraged, but it hurts my feelings at times. Anyhow, I will leave it up to the man up above.

[Q.]

Originally Posted by lizz

: Pharmacists are MD's so .... yeah ... they do make a lot more.

Pharmacists are not MDs. Pharmacists are licensed professionals who hold a minimum of a bachelor's in pharmacy, however, the recent push is for all pharmacists to hold a DOCTORATE (Pharm-D). And here nurses are quibbling over having a Bachelors be the mimimum.

http://www.aphanet.org/students/care..._education.htm

[SFCardiacRN]

What ever your smoking up there in Spokane...Ya better cut down!

[rn/writer]

Originally Posted by lindarn

And Physical Therapists and Occupational Therapists, and Pharmacists, make twice as much money as nurses do. The have increased their education to a Doctorate, as have Pharmacists.

If it's mainly about the money, why not pick a one of the more lucrative choices to begin with.

I find it hard to believe that the educational preparation for a social worker is more difficult than an RN.

Maybe not more difficult, but certainly longer. To get any sort of a decent job, you need a Masters. And if you think our pay scale comes up short, try getting by on $25K-$35K for a salaried position with lots of extra unpaid hours and take-home work. Do this until you have your 3000 hours operating under someone else's supervision and finally become able to bill on your own. Then you get the delights of handling your own billing or paying someone else to handle the administrative details. Or you can work for the city or the state or the feds and put yourself on a fast track to burn-out.

Physical Therapy is not much more than that of a Physical Education major, physics and calculus being the deciding classes. I know because I minored in PHysical Education, and had all of the PE and pre- Physical Therapy majors in my classes. Believe it or not, the PE majors have almost the same pre- requisites as nurses do. As do the PT and OT majors. The difference is that the PT and OT organizations worked very hard in the 80's to distinguish their members from the PE majors. They saw the writing on the wall, that when DRGs became the norm for payment, and $$$ was being cut to the bone for every department, they realized that they had to go all out to make themselves look more important from the lesser skilled careers. That was why they increased their entry to first a Masters, and now a Doctorate. Increased education made it a harder career to go into, therby cutting their numbers, and they retained only the individuals who really wanted a career in PT, and were willing to go the extra mile to do so. Their smaller numbers, mean there are fewer of them and there is more of an effort to keep them happy. And they get to charge a higher salary.

So, we should raise the bar for nursing, force those on the lower rungs to upgrade or jump ship, find ways to make ourselves look more sophisticated and important, and, with the remaining smaller numbers, try to accomplish all that is just barely getting done now? I'm guessing the new, improved, and eminently worthy nurses of this scenario will not want to bother with the daily grind of pill-passing and ADLs and messing about in a family practice clinic. After all, who earns a Masters degree to empty bedpans and give baby shots?

Nurses are dime a dozen. There is no reason for anyone to go out of their way to make them happy. There is always another sucker from "ABC" Community college graduating in just six months to replace the older, more experienced, and more expensive, nurses. Think about it. Just my $0.02.

Seems like we should look for ways to pull together and use that corporate strength to accomplish our common goal of attaining more respect and better pay. That seems a much more practical and humane approach than trying to devalue and marginalize a huge percentage of our numbers.

Anyone who resents ADNs and LPN/LVNs and views them as the poor relations who stand to embarrass the rest of the family had better consider how nursing might be affected by their absence. They might also do well to look at the percentage of lower degree vs. higher degree nurses. Of course, there will no doubt be promises of grandfathering in the current workforce. But how will entry level education be raised from 40% BSN to 100% BSN and what kind of time frame will that require?

Below is an excerpt from (and a link to) an article that addresses this issue.

It's Time To Unite
by Pat Mahan, Nurse-Recruiter.com, NursingBar.com, RecruitingWare.com

SPECIAL NOTE: - After you have finished reading this article, we invite you to take an online survey related specifically to this article. You will find the link at the end of the article.
Having attended the National Council State Board of Nursing annual convention this month, I was once again reminded of the divisiveness of the nursing profession and the importance for us, at all levels of practice, to come together with a united voice. I know that it seems an impossible task, but I am a true believer that impossible tasks are the ones we have chosen not to make a priority for solution. As I sat in on meetings I heard another group advocate that a BSN should be the minimum requirement for "professional" nursing (RNs). I heard another group say LPNs should not be allowed to expand their scope of practice. A committee report to the council suggested how CNAs should be delegated to in nursing practice. Finally, the worst of this divisiveness I saw was when one state announced they had just opened a new diploma school of nursing and the outbreak of emotional responses was quite unprofessional to say the best.


As I looked at all the happenings, it occurred to me that we risk yet another "turf battle" in the near future as advanced practice nurses expand in numbers. Will the next battle we see be these APRNs fighting to keep RNs from expanding their roles unless they obtain advanced degrees? Well if our history continues unchecked, I'd be willing to guarantee it will happen.


As noted above, at one of the breakout sessions, a relatively new association joined with the ANA and stated that the minimum education level for a registered nurse must be a BSN. I spoke with that organization's president after the session ended, making a simple point. When organizations make these blanket statements, without forwarding a plan that addresses the concerns of the majority of RNs who do not have a BSN, such agendas can only be damaging to the profession. What is your plan for ADNs, diploma nurses, LPNs, and nursing assistants? Are they just to be swept under the rug, or will they be given grants to continue their education? More importantly, can any group attain "professional" status, recognition and pay without having a group or group that helps them deliver service to their clients. All the "professions" have individuals, not as well-trained but capable and competent, who help deliver their professional service to their clients. For example, attorneys depend on para-legals, business executives depend on executive assistants, and physicians depend on physician assistants and nurse practitioners, and the list goes on.


Some will tell you that it's important to have laundry lists of what certain levels of nurse can and cannot do within their "scope of practice". In my opinion, this can do nothing but hurt us as a profession. First of all, we do it more to protect our "turf" than to protect the public. Little if any research backs the creation, validity, or necessarily of these laundry lists. LPNs doing IV therapy! Who would have ever thought. Well, if nursing didn't progress, RNs would still not be taking blood pressures, let alone doing IV therapy.


We must realize that we are in a dynamic and rapidly growing industry. As knowledge and capabilities expand, so too must the knowledge and capabilities of all practitioners of nursing, regardless of their educational level. Don't buy in to any group that tells you a certain level of training is necessary to provide a skilled service to patients in any setting. Nursing schools at all levels train and educate their graduates to meet minimum competency to begin practice. It is with years of experience, ongoing education, and dedication that we become experts in any facet of our profession.

Continued . . .

http://www.nursingbar.com/its_time_to_unite.html


No one is stopping any nurse who wants to pursue a higher degree. Conversely, no one should blame or look down their noses at the nurses who perform a significant share of the workhorse jobs that constitute the bulk of patient care.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by Q.

Pharmacists are not MDs. Pharmacists are licensed professionals who hold a minimum of a bachelor's in pharmacy, however, the recent push is for all pharmacists to hold a DOCTORATE (Pharm-D). And here nurses are quibbling over having a Bachelors be the mimimum.

http://www.aphanet.org/students/care..._education.htm

Sorry ... the pharmacy schools in my area do require doctorates ... but I misspoke by calling them MD's.

[DanaS]

Originally Posted by Future_RN_Jess

All I can say is wow, some statements and people's views fog my mind. Here I am pondering if I am wasting my time trying to pursue a career in nursing. Not to sound discouraged, but it hurts my feelings at times. Anyhow, I will leave it up to the man up above.

No joke. I agree after reading some of these posts that it does make us question what the heck we're getting into. But you have to remind yourself of why you chose the nursing path and go with your heart. Do not let someone else's hurtful comments discourage you. I believe that there are people who have a difficult time putting themselves in someone else's shoes before lashing out with their demeaning opinions/statements.

I have been warned many times by many different nurses that one of the more difficult aspects of nursing is working with the "select bunch" who place themselves high above others and especially their "less-educated" peers. However, I found that to be true in the legal profession as well. Unfortunately, I have been convinced that working with bunch of women is sometimes very difficult and sometimes challenges ones patience and pride.

Good luck to you! Happy Holidays!:icon_wink

[kadokin]

Originally Posted by tencat

Higher levels of education do not necessarily increase the the quality of the profession as a whole. I don't know how long you've lived in Washington state, Lindarn, but about 15 years ago the state was trying to make it mandatory for a teacher to earn a Masters Degree, and that was going to be the standard. This didn't mean that they were being treated with more respect as professionals and would receive due compensation. Wages were not set to change that much, and in fact, the cost of getting the Masters outweighed the 'benefits' to the profession. So when the powers that be saw that gee, teachers weren't getting Masters degrees and staying with the profession because they could do better elsewhere, the state dropped the requirement. I think the same would happen to nursing. Sure, we'd all have to get a BSN which would mean we had a higher standard for the profession, but the hospitals would use it as an excuse to keep pay low and make it much harder to advance up the pay scale. The lower salaries that LPN's are making would become the salaries that BSN's would be making. I agree that unionizing is certainly the way to go, but in the West it seems that a lot of people are afraid to organize unions, be it for nursing or teaching or whatever.

I don't know if you mean the western united states or the western world, but I personally am opposed to unions in nursing b/c:
-I don't believe healthcare needs ANOTHER level of bureaucracy. As it stands, most decisions in healthcare have to take multiple agendas/interests into account such as: management, physicians, public health, joint commission, hippa, ada, etc. and of course, nurses and patients. Do we really need to add the union agenda to the list?
-If a union represents a group, the individual members of that group may find their own concerns/needs taking a backseat to the concerns and needs of the union. I don't believe this is always a good idea. Sometimes, it's the diversity of a group that makes it stronger as a unit.
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of unions in theory and have no problem w/people who choose to organize, if that is their desire. I just think we have to be careful when we give others the prerogative to make our decisions for us.

[yellowlablover]

SmilingBlueeyes:

I have to agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. I am almost finished wth my science pre-reqs, already have a BS degree in business. I would get my BSN, EXCEPT that the closest university is even more competitive than the ADN programs. I plan on applying everywhere I can, but with me already having a BS degree and at my age, it is most important to me to get the RN training, so that I can go back for my master's and hopefully a nurse practitioner position. All that being said, there are many reasons for folks to take different tracts to being in health care, whether is it CNA, LPN, RN or more.

[Jessy_RN]

Originally Posted by lizz

This is what frustrates me about the BSN argument ... you can't get into those programs !!!!!

There are five ADN programs for every one BSN program in my area. Overall, 70 percent of the nursing programs in California are ADN, and only 30 percent are BSN. If you want to get into nursing school at all ... you have to apply for an ADN because the chances are better. If I only waited for a BSN slot to open, I'd still be waiting because the BSN waiting list is so long they're not even taking applicants.

And you're wrong about the two years. The BSN program in my area requires a couple of additional pre-reqs than the ADN program, which would eat up another semester, and it takes an additional three years for the program itself, not two. This particular BSN program takes longer than the standard four years. The only way I will get my BSN in any reasonable amount of time is getting my ADN first and taking the BSN online.

If you want people to get BSN's ... lobby the legislatures to provide funding to convert all the ADN programs to BSN's because that's the only way we will be able to get into those programs.

Until then ... can we give this one a rest ???? I can't stand it when people hammer on the BSN issue when, for all practical purposes, it's impossible.

I totally agree