[Kyrshamarks]

Everyone here is quoting the Great vaunted Nurse Practice act as if it was passed down to Moses by god himself. Well guess what people...Federal Law supercedes state law and employment law is a FEDERAL law. Even the nurse practice act can be proven wrong and forced to conform to federal law. Nowhere did it say the children were left without care and nowhere did it say that the nurses did it to work for another company. Since when do we as a nurses have to relinquish our rights over the wants and supposed needs of a company or yetr even a patient? When I became a nurse oh so many years ago nowhere did it say I had to become a slave or a anyones stooge.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by mercyteapot

That is indeed the question. I'd need to know the answer before I could decide if I thought this was actual abandonment. It seems to me that the facility must have been able to find nurses to cover, because otherwise, given the melodramatic tone of the article, it would've included information about children going without care. Even without making that assumption, I'd like to know more about the specifics.

Well ... as far as getting more nurses to cover ...

The company went to the court the following Monday, and got a temporary restraining order against the lawyer, stopping him from soliciting more nurses to resign.

I guess the lawyer and the nurses were planning even more resignations the following week. But, the TRO apparently put a stop to it, at least temporarily.

And, the lawyer has also been charged in this case. Remember: the lawyer worked for a competing agency so, his motives weren't pure either.

[withasmilelpn]

Did the facility consider finding beds for these children at other facilities, since they were unable to properly care for them? I think the other nurses were not charged at the other facilities because they were not caring for children. 'Endangering the welfare of children' has a lot more impact. If the patients were not harmed, I don't see the problem with them walking out. It sounds like it should be closed down in the first place. Ultimately it would be in the patients best interest in the long run if it is not an ethical, good place to work for nurses and problems are not addressed.

[chigap]

This topic really winds me up. I have worked in some really horrible and unsafe conditions in places that were accredited by organizations who were meant to be looking out for the best interests of the patients. In my experience as a nurse, we are often stretched too thin on a good day and in the best of facilities. Objectively, it would appear that this facility is not a good employer as it has been stated formal complaints have been made. I would love to know if these facilities had been cited or fined by the organizations that accredit them. Furthermore, when was the last time a BON or state nurses association took a stance against these types of employers or the organizations that give them the green light.

It is no secret that there is a shortage of nurses in the US and it also no secret that the country fis ull of nurses who refuse to put up with poor and unsafe working environments. The US imports foreign nurses to do a job that nobody else wants to do. They are not migrant farm workers, but university educated licensed professionals who are invited by the US government to work in a professional position.

In addition, there is no shortage of nurses, nurse managers and nurse adminstrators who are happy to facilitate this kind of abuse and in the end, escape without recourse. It is always the patients that suffer. These issues have been going on for years and years and in the end, nurses need to take responsibilty for nursing. I invite those who claim to care so much about these children to go and volunteer their services to them now.

These Pinoy nurses did not let these children down. The US govt, state of NY, the NYNA, the NY BON and the organizations that accredited the facilities let these children down. And now, these nurses will be scapegoated by the American corpocracy and nurses will turn a blind eye and say "It is not my problem. Those horrible Fillipino nurses are to blame."

Phooey!

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

Originally Posted by lizz

Well ... as far as getting more nurses to cover ...

The company went to the court the following Monday, and got a temporary restraining order against the lawyer, stopping him from soliciting more nurses to resign.

I guess the lawyer and the nurses were planning even more resignations the following week. But, the TRO apparently put a stop to it, at least temporarily.

And, the lawyer has also been charged in this case. Remember: the lawyer worked for a competing agency so, his motives weren't pure either.

Never thought I'd find myself on the same side of a strong arguement as you, lizz, but here we are, two hotheads in agreement. Nice to see you again!

[Gromit]

Well, unless they were not able to find nurses to cover those patients, these nurses will be able to escape these charges (unless their lawyer is a complete incompetent) -even under the much-referenced NYLaw, they won't have abandoned if coverage were found. After taking a glance AT that piece of legislation, it is leaving an awful lot to interpretation (how long is 'reasonable' notice, and how many can quit their job before it becomes a violation? (what percentage of the work force can leave?) -Federal law does not mandate anywhere (in any position) that you MUST give a two-week notice to quit your job anymore than it requires employers to give you notice before fireing or laying you off. The two-week notice is a COURTESY -and from the sound of it, this employer didn't really garner a whole lot of respect from its employees.
Would >I< have done it? No. I've ALWAYS given notice (though one time I gave notice of two weeks right after being approved for two weeks vacation, but that really was an extreme case) -thats how I was raised, and my moral compass demands it.
Yes, both sides of this argument have valid points -I agree to that. However, I'm more than a little sick and tired of the cry "handicapped children on vents!!!" -as if any adult or other age bracket were to be considdered to be less important. Those cries are designed for one thing only -to tug at the heart strings. Sorry, but I don't fall for that kind of hooey. They are patients. No more or less deserving than the other patients in the facilities in question. The fact that others won't be charged -only those who quit at the facility with children, may well play into the case for the defense.
I do not make decisions based on emotions. The case should only be weather or not these nurses commited abandonment -and the fact that they handed their charges off to another nurse before leaving and quitting will argue heavily in favor of the defense. The legislation (state) being cited is vague, and very open to interpretation -that too will help the defense.
The lawyer may have had ulterior motives -no disagreement there -I have absolutely no respect for THEIR field whatsoever. When the lawyers crafted that piece of legislation, they should have been more specific (percentage of workforce) -and yet they were not. They essentially left loopholes in it by leaving it open to interpretation -and if you don't think THAT was by design, then you really should pay more attention to lawyers and what they do (grin).
Morally, I'm easily ready to say they were wrong to quit in the manner they quit. But legally? I'm not so sure.
Parading pictures of kids who are ill and on life support is dishonest at best, disrespectful of the kids at worst. If THAT is what it takes for the prosecution to make its' case, then they really don't have much of a case, do they?

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

Originally Posted by chigap

This topic really winds me up.

Me too.

Originally Posted by chigap

In my experience as a nurse, we are often stretched too thin on a good day and in the best of facilities.

But we don't walk out or quit without notice. If we did, we'd lose our licenses for abandonment. If anything happened to the patients we abandoned, we'd be criminally liable. They should be too. What's good for the goose...... The jobs at that hospital are not filled by American nurses because the conditions were intolerable and unprofessional, or because the hospital sought to save some money by hiring cheaper nurses, or for some other reason immaterial to this discussion. I guess you get what you pay for, regardless of where they grew up.

Originally Posted by chigap

It is no secret that there is a shortage of nurses in the US and it also no secret that the country fis ull of nurses who refuse to put up with poor and unsafe working environments. The US imports foreign nurses to do a job that nobody else wants to do. They are not migrant farm workers, but university educated licensed professionals who are invited by the US government to work in a professional position.

a) The fact that foreign nurses are happy to come here and work in deplorable conditions for less compensation than American nurses confirms that they are a part of the problem. It will not get better for American nurses if hospitals can find someone else to do the job, and cheaper too.
b) The US government doesn't invite them, they are recruited by for-profit companies who promise them housing, transportation, (relative) big bucks, etc., etc. If they come and find they also get "deplorable working conditions," then gee, I guess they found out the same thing we American nurses did when we determined to vote with our feet (giving notice, of course).

Originally Posted by chigap

In addition, there is no shortage of nurses, nurse managers and nurse adminstrators who are happy to facilitate this kind of abuse and in the end, escape without recourse

Where are you getting this? This is not the issue, it is inflammatory and it proves nothing. It is your opinion, period.

Originally Posted by chigap

I invite those who claim to care so much about these children to go and volunteer their services to them now.

Are you working as a volunteer? Or are you paid? That's what I thought.

Originally Posted by chigap

These Pinoy nurses did not let these children down.

Yes, they did, when they quit without notice. Even a lousy employer doesn't have time to fill upteen positions with no notice.

Originally Posted by chigap

The US govt, state of NY, the NYNA, the NY BON and the organizations that accredited the facilities let these children down.

You don't know that.

Originally Posted by chigap

And now, these nurses will be scapegoated by the American corpocracy and nurses will turn a blind eye and say "It is not my problem. Those horrible Fillipino nurses are to blame."

Didn't see where anyone blamed "Filippino" nurses. I don't think anyone would like to see that happen, regardless of the country of origin of the nurses. The fact is, you are advocating special treatment of nurses who came here for avaricious reasons. That seems a little unfair to the rest of us!

[danigirl58]

This topic really bothers me. Where on earth does it state that just because I am a nurse that I need to work in crappy conditions, have no say, be treated like crap, and have no real say in the working conditions that I am involved in. Nurses are professionals we are educated people we should be treated with more respect. MHO is that I don't think that other professions are treated as poorly as we are. If someone has a problem with there working conditions they can quit they can leave with out notice. What because I work with children and maybe children that have certain needs, does that mean i get to be treated like crap and walked all over. If I brought the situation up with management over and over again and nothing was ever done about it your dang right I'd quit. Since when is it up to the nurses that work in facilities to meet staffing needs. That is not my responsibility as a floor nurse, that is managements job not mine!!!
So what 10 nurses left, would it have been better had they all left a few days apart??? would they have been charged had they given there 2 weeks notice, probably MHO is that nurses are not truly respected for what we do. We are expected to put up with crap and just deal with it because we are care givers. OK I am going on a rant that I am not sure is going anywhere but honestly this is a bunch of BS, no other profession is treated like ours.

[lllliv]

i don't see anyone advocating for special treatment of these nurses.

they should not be condemned though by other nurses who don't even know the whole situation.

[Jokerhill]

For all those who play the lotto out there and put all their tickets in a pool and you win, are you all going to quit? Half your staff each have millions in the bank can they quit or do they have to stay? There are many things management can do to cover for the missing staff, some of the management are RNs I'll bet and could cover after all it is ultimately their responsibility. There are of course registry nurses, overtime bonuses for call backs, and patient transfers, or they could have just negotiated with the nurses that quit and make some considerations they should have made long before, just to name a few. So if endangerment happened it was not due to the nurses it was managements unwillingness to make the needed arrangements and unwillingness to pay the price. Our management knows nurses are quiting here and they know why, but they also don't want to pay the price. They keep taking patients and the money for them non-stop however. Management creates the situation gets paid for it and then puts the nurses in a no win situation. So, I ask what is worse being put in a position of giving sub-par care or doing what you can with what you have to hold management accountable for the care they are being paid to perform. Would you give up your job with it costing you a dissolution fee for your contract to protect your patients?