[Tweety]

Originally Posted by lizz

Does anybody care about these kids? For crying out loud, if you're gonna be a jerk and quit with no notice, at least quit on a week day so they have a better chance of finding other staff to take care of those kids.

I agree. A dramatic walk out more than likely resulted in substandard, and perhaps one can argue dangerous care for these kids.

However, I doubt their walk-out was a knee jerk reaction. It was planned and thought out.

I wonder though if walking up to their employer and saying we're all quitting within two weeks would have given them a heads up to prepare for the charges of abandoment, and they would have made the courts demand they stay (no union I presume to prevent this). etc. etc.

We're not angels. I realize these people were in it only for the money and only to make things better for themselves, but it doesn't mean they didn't care about the kids and just abandoned them.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by Tweety

I agree. A dramatic walk out more than likely resulted in substandard, and perhaps one can argue dangerous care for these kids.

However, I doubt their walk-out was a knee jerk reaction. It was planned and thought out.

I wonder though if walking up to their employer and saying we're all quitting within two weeks would have given them a heads up to prepare for the charges of abandoment, and they would have made the courts demand they stay (no union I presume to prevent this). etc. etc.

We're not angels. I realize these people were in it only for the money and only to make things better for themselves, but it doesn't mean they didn't care about the kids and just abandoned them.

I've never heard of any employer being able to force someone to stay. You might have to pay a penalty if you have a contract, but they can't force you to stay.

You just have to give the employer notice so they can hire more staff. If they don't hire more staff after you give them notice then, it's on the employer ... not you.

But you can't create a situation where it's impossible to staff with no notice. 26 nurses resigned all within two days. That's why the whole thing was so stupid. They could have easily covered themselves by giving notice.

In my opinion, this attorney didn't know what he was doing. He's an employment/immigration attorney. He thought he'd nailed them on some employment law violations so, it would be ok if they all resigned at once. He obviously wasn't familar with New York nursing laws and regulations.

New York Board of Regents Rules:

Unprofessional conduct for health professionals shall include:

"... abandoning a professional employment by a group practice, hospital, clinic or other health care facility, without reasonable notice and under circumstances which seriously impair the delivery of professional care to patients or clients."

http://www.op.nysed.gov/part29.htm

And, I'm sorry ... but when this involves disabled kids on respirators, it is going to be game over with the court. It will take a miracle for them to win.

[Suesquatch]

And now, Lizz, the courts will determine whether this constituted abandonment.

I'm quite certain that the attorney was familiar with the NYS Nurse Practice Act.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by Suesquatch

And now, Lizz, the courts will determine whether this constituted abandonment.

I'm quite certain that the attorney was familiar with the NYS Nurse Practice Act.

Funny, he doesn't mention the nurse practice act in a lengthy email that was sent to numerous media outlets at the time:

On April 6, 2006, our law offices filed charges in behalf of the 26 nurses and 1 physical therapist for discrimination against their respective petitioning employers, Philipson, Sentosa Care, LLC, and Prompt Nursing Employment Agency, before the Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices of the US Department of Justice in Washington, DC. A Fil-Am newspaper carried the story as a class action suit against Sentosa group of companies.

The nurses and physical therapist likewise submitted their resignation letters sometime thereafter, to be effective immediately.

Their resignations were premised on the substantial breach by their employers of their employment agreements.

http://www.sassylawyer.com/2006/07/2...nurses-plight/

Doesn't look to me like he considered the nurse practice act at all.

As far as I'm concerned, if all of this is true then they should have sued, all the power to them. But give your reasonable notice and do it the right way. Don't abandon the kids on a weekend with no notice.

[Sheri257]

BTW: there's another key fact in this case that's been overlooked on this thread..

The lawyer who convinced these nurses to walk off the job, also happens to represent one of their employer's competitors: Juno Healthcare Staffing.

So, obviously, there may have been other motives at work here.

[Tweety]

Good arguements all Lizz. Interesting about their lawyer also representing a competitor. You have to wonder if they really have the nurses interests at heart. What an ugly situation. You can bet your sweet bippy (phrase from the 60's...sorry) that the facilities lawyers are definately going to play up the "disabled kids on ventilator" trump card, and it just might work.

There might have been a better way to stop the abuse their were experiencing for sure. But I'm not going to armchair judge them. I'm sympathetic to their plight and applaud them for taking a stand.

At this point and time is there any proof the patients were harmed by the "abandonment" or is there just the potential there.

I never realized I wasn't free to quit a job without notice. I'll have to look at Florida's nurse practice act. I've seen many a nurse quit without notice. Naturallly one nurse isn't going to render substandard care, but en mass it would. Interesting.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by Tweety

At this point and time is there any proof the patients were harmed by the "abandonment" or is there just the potential there.

In one of the articles the assistant DA did say the children weren't harmed but, he also said it doesn't matter. According to him, it's still illegal to endanger a child, whether they are harmed or not.

I agree that we all probably should look up our nurse practice acts as far as what's required for "reasonable notice" when quitting jobs. Presumably you'll never get into trouble if you give the standard two weeks notice.

I do think the fact that the attorney was representing a competitor is suspicious. At this point, most of the expenses had been paid for these nurses to come here and get licensed so ... maybe they were trying to steal the nurses away once all the hard work had been done.

Afterall, a key part of the dispute was that these nurses were obligated to pay a $25,000 penalty for not fulfilling their three year deal. And, of course, they didn't want to pay.

It's quite possible, IMO, that the attorney and the rival company was trying to exploit the nurses just as much as they were claiming their current employer was exploiting them.

I certainly don't think they gave them good legal advice. Afterall, who wants to have to fight child endangerment charges when, giving adequate notice would have avoided this whole thing.

[Gromit]

Originally Posted by chris_at_lucas_RN

We will never be so desperate for nurses that we are OK with those poor excuses who view their positions as "just a job," their patients as inanimate objects to be left sitting for Lord knows how long until someone else bothers to show up.

I think the penalties described are too lenient.

It was this sort of sad, irresponsible and uncaring behavior that caused me to quit my first nursing job; even the nurse manager didn't care--she made excuses!

Not everyone who does stupid and insensitive things is getting screwed by their employer. They left handicapped children on vents to fend for themselves.

Uhm, excuse me. Correct me if I'm wrong (please) but they did not just up and leave before their relief came. Those patients were NOT abandoned.
You may not like the way they quit, but if they finished their shift, they did not abandon any patient (strictly speaking, by definition, they did not abandon anyone) -The ONLY thing they should be liable for is the breaking of their contract -and thats between them and their agency (which is technically their employer).

They did NOT leave "handicapped children on vents to fend for themselves". They TURNED OVER CARE of the 'handicapped children on vents' to their shift-relief. This is not about 'heartstrings' -this is about what they did and did not do.
The sudden exodus of that many staff of a shift is probably ethically shaky, maybe its morally shaky as well -but LEGALLY?
They quit their job -and unless America has changed radically over the last few days or so, that is still something you have the right to do.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by Gromit

The sudden exodus of that many staff of a shift is probably ethically shaky, maybe its morally shaky as well -but LEGALLY?
They quit their job -and unless America has changed radically over the last few days or so, that is still something you have the right to do.

Chris' point is that we're nurses who take care of patients who's lives are at stake, not just clerks at a convenience store. Of course you have a right to quit your job. But, as a nurse, you may not have a right to quit your job with no notice that potentially endangers patients' lives.

Again ... the New York Board of Regents pretty much says the same thing:

Unprofessional conduct for nurses includes:

"... abandoning a professional employment by a group practice, hospital, clinic or other health care facility ... without reasonable notice ...

and under circumstances which seriously impair the delivery of professional care to patients or clients."

So no, actually, you can't always just up and quit your job without notice if it seriously impairs delivery of care to patients. I think most people would agree that 26 nurses quitting all at the same time without notice would seriously impair delivery of care.

It could be different in other states but, this is what New York says. This is what the DA is prosecuting.

[mercyteapot]

Originally Posted by lizz

Chris' point is that we're nurses who take care of patients who's lives are at stake, not just clerks at a convenience store. Of course you have a right to quit your job. But, as a nurse, you may not have a right to quit your job with no notice that potentially endangers patients' lives.

Again ... the New York Board of Regents pretty much says the same thing:

Unprofessional conduct for nurses includes:

"... abandoning a professional employment by a group practice, hospital, clinic or other health care facility ... without reasonable notice ...

and under circumstances which seriously impair the delivery of professional care to patients or clients."

So no, actually, you can't always just up and quit your job without notice if it seriously impairs delivery of care to patients. I think most people would agree that 26 nurses quitting all at the same time without notice would seriously impair delivery of care.

It could be different in other states but, this is what New York says. This is what the DA is prosecuting.

On the face of it, this case is black and white. Given what the law says, it would seem that these nurses violated it.

But... first that term "reasonable" notice is going to need to be interpreted. If the facility was able to bring in nurses to cover all the shifts, then a case can be made that the notice was reasonable under this set of circumstances. Not ideal, certainly; but then, they'll make the argument that the way they were treated was also far less than ideal. It is difficult to muster up any sympathy for their employer having to scramble to cover their shifts. The fact that they ended up being covered will, IMHO, make proving abandonment a real stretch.

I believe the breach of contract issue will be treated separately? That too could end up being a wash... it sounds to me as if their employer was in serious breach, too.