[herring_RN]

Originally Posted by BradleyRN

Moe,
Typically, i approached the women that didnt negotiate to console them, as nobody was happy doing two nurses jobs as one nurse. And since many didnt refuse the crazy assignments, i was certainly challenged by management everytime i did, as illustrated in a previous thread:


So really Moe, it all came down to the fact that i would throw myself on the line and risk my job. But if the alternative is to force me to neglect the people i have made an oath to protect, as it would be literally impossible to provide adequate care to that many people on dayshift, well i came here to help people, and that could instead hurt them! It could have fallen back on me though, since i am only one person. If we all stood together, they would have to give a little of their profit back to the safety of our patients, where it belongs!

I applaud you for your advocacy.
We need to do this together on all units.

Back to the topic

[SKM-NURSIEPOOH]

Originally Posted by BradleyRN

Moe,
Typically, i approached the women that didnt negotiate to console them, as nobody was happy doing two nurses jobs as one nurse. And since many didnt refuse the crazy assignments, i was certainly challenged by management everytime i did, as illustrated in a previous thread:


So really Moe, it all came down to the fact that i would throw myself on the line and risk my job. But if the alternative is to force me to neglect the people i have made an oath to protect, as it would be literally impossible to provide adequate care to that many people on dayshift, well i came here to help people, and that could instead hurt them! It could have fallen back on me though, since i am only one person. If we all stood together, they would have to give a little of their profit back to the safety of our patients, where it belongs!

Bradley,
As crazy & extreme as that LTC assignment sounded; I would find it hard to believe *anybody* accepting such an assignment (male or female). Anyone who would definitely need their head examined!

That being said, I'm still curious to know what you tell "female nurses" how they should negotiate their positions (provided you're able to speak to them prior to them being interviewed & hired...if at all). Or do you just advise them after they start working. Lastly, I'd like some insight as to the reasons they give you for *not* standing up for themselves beside the obvious retaliation response.

Thx - Cheers,
Moe

[BradleyRN]

Originally Posted by sallyinchicago

Do you think that racism and sexism exists? I ask you that because I want to know from you, have you experienced racism firsthand? Do you know what that experience is like? If a black nurse came to you and had evidence that she was being discriminated against, or if anyone who was a minority had that complaint and brought it to you, what would your instant reaction be?

I do believe that racism exists, and I have experienced racism firsthand. There is no need to insinuate that i wouldnt care about a racist event.
The article presents facts that demonstrate that the issue may not be entirely based on racism. Just because i pointed that out does not mean that i dont believe it exists. I do not tolerate racism, or hate in any form, be it for race, religion, gender, etc. In the face of evidence of discrimination, i would immediately become an advocate for the victim, and would aggressively seek resolution, all the way to the end.

[BradleyRN]

Originally Posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH

I'm still curious to know what you tell "female nurses" how they should negotiate their positions (provided you're able to speak to them prior to them being interviewed & hired...if at all).

Nothing. As far as why they dont stand up, it is their obvious fear of termination. I admit, standing up is going out on a limb, especially if you are the only one doing it. So even though i wish they would, i cant be upset if they dont. We all have bills!

[PiPhi2004]

Originally Posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH

There are dangers in not remembering or looking in the past in order to move forward in the future. We all are aware that "history has a way of repeating itself..." when we don't pay attention ! Why on earth would you that people are living in the past on this (or any) sticky situation, especially if we could learn from past mistakes?

Just my - Ciao,
Moe

What I meant by this is that you cant look at the past to make inferences on this argument. I cant effect the past I can only do whats right in the present. I didnt mean anything about learning from the past, just that I cant change it or do anything about it, and neither can any of us. We can LEARN from it but it seems that the comment I commented on earlier had inferences to past experiences where I find that irrelevant to the current topic. Now I'm just going to shut up becuase it doesnt seem that any rational discusson can be had on this subject.

[earle58]

this discussion has been highly rational.
i'm not understanding that comment at all.

more important, w/o the contrast of the past, there would be no parameters in which to measure the present:
in regards to how far we have come;
and, how far we have to go.
it is the past that serves as the foundation for the present.

leslie

[Vito Andolini]

Originally Posted by PiPhi2004

He was just offering another side to the argument. I think it is very narrow minded to not look at BOTH sides and to possibly think that there may be something else that is an issue in this case instead of just looking at stats and saying "yep this is a racial issue." He thought outside the box and I commend him for his comments and thoughts. You have your own personal experiences which is fine and if you have been discriminated against then I am sorry about that for you. I truly believe there was racism that occurred like this IN THE PAST but should we really live in the past? Just my .

I was with you until you pretty much stated that racism no longer exists. It does exist. However, it is not always directed against blacks. Blacks can be racist, too. I am black and I know that there is plenty of animosity directed from blacks to whites, especially. And they are whites who have not, to my knowledge, earned the ill will. They are just white and that seems to be enough for some blacks to mistrust and dislike them.

I have an acquaintance who is white and his wife is Korean. She is very nice at first but everyone who knows her has remarked, sooner or later, that she has accused them of disliking her because she is Korean. She could not be more wrong. The problem is, we all like her! She is funny, intelligent, a great cook, a friendly, quiet neighbor - just an all around great gal. It is so sad and so aggravating that she just can't leave this issue alone. She is tormented by it and so is everyone she has accused. She just can't accept our acceptance. The problem is with her. At least, I know my wife, our children, and I have never given her any specific or general reason to think we dislike her and dislike her for being Korean. And I really doubt that anyone else we know has either. It's just her issue.

I think some blacks are like that, too. They expect to be victims of racism, so they see it even if it isn't really there. The trouble is, sometimes it really is there. I have had to teach myself to just be who I am, be decent to everyone, expect to be accepted and liked and respected. It has gotten me this far without any major incidents.

Even if someone doesn't treat us right due to racial bigotry, there are ways to combat it and conquer. The victory starts here and in our attitudes and in our self-respect. Yes, I know situations can be tense but we don't have to succumb to the pressure.

Can you imagine all the times my patients have been taken aback by their black male nurse? I used to always tell them, and I meant it, that I knew it might be a little uncomfortable for them to have me as their nurse and that, if they wanted to, they could have a different nurse. Only a couple have taken me up on that over a lot of years. And I was glad they were honest and I was not hurt or angry. I did not assume it was my race because maybe it was my gender or my hair or my figure. I do not need to take care of people who don't trust me because I need to be able to form a partnership with my patients so we can work together to get them well. You know how important that is. Nursing is tough enough without forcing myself upon someone who is afraid of me or, for whatever reason, doesn't want me in their life. It was better for all concerned to get that out of the way up front.

So, folks are going to do what they do, and very often we won't be able to totally discern their reasons. But we should not assume their reasons are racist or otherwise bad. We should live and let live, do our thing, and go on with it.

To the nurse above me who said she was sure it was racial, I ask how she knew that? Not arguing, just how did you know, totally know, it was racial? And I am sorry for your pain. I do know how it feels.

[Vito Andolini]

Originally Posted by earle58

bradley, in this instance, i would certainly err on the side of caution, since racism clearly exists.
rather than expending all this energy on, "it could be this, that or many other variables", why not expend same energy on tracing the roots of these discrepancies?
once truth is discovered, only 2 things can happen:
black nurses find out they were discriminated against;
or, discrepancies are r/t other factors...
which if the case, becomes a moot point.

it's very important to know for sure, one way or the other.
certainly more preferable than a bunch of suppositions.

leslie

True. But unless someone overtly calls you a "N" or some other clearly racist name,or says, "No ____ allowed here", or just clearly lets you know he hates you because you are _____, how can we ever really KNOW what is in someone else's heart and soul? I say step around it, keep on keepin' on.

[sallyinchicago]

Thanks Vito.

Actually, I never said that I was sure it was a racial situation in the article. I just said that racism does in fact exist, and I also said that we should not be afraid of that, but confront it in order to move on. I was responding to what I saw as Bradley saying that it was not racism, but negotiation skills that explained why white nurses get paid more than blacks. I simply made the point that racism is a strong fact that should be considered. Bradley has clarified his point, and I hope I have clarified mine!

[sallyinchicago]

Originally Posted by PiPhi2004

What I meant by this is that you cant look at the past to make inferences on this argument. I cant effect the past I can only do whats right in the present. I didnt mean anything about learning from the past, just that I cant change it or do anything about it, and neither can any of us. We can LEARN from it but it seems that the comment I commented on earlier had inferences to past experiences where I find that irrelevant to the current topic. Now I'm just going to shut up becuase it doesnt seem that any rational discusson can be had on this subject.

Wow PiPhi2004, uncomfortable much?

Why would a discussion like this, a discussion that very much needs to be had, especially now, be considered nonrational? Because people don't agree with you? Because this topic makes you uncomfortable, and THAT makes it nonrational? Huh? I don't get it.

I think it may make you uncomfortable that we are discussing racism, but that is the very reason why we DO need to discuss it.

How are my experiences with racism past tense? I go through that everyday PiPhi2004, and so do friends and family, so it is not past tense, it is very much in the here and now.

It DOES make people uncomfortable, especially the people who live with it everyday (including whites who see it and do not like it) and it needs to end.