[Vito Andolini]

Originally Posted by CHATSDALE

some agency with teeth needs to investigate this correct this situation

nursing has been traditionally been a place where discrimination is not allowed this is no time to allow it to get a foothold
i worked with a nurse and she said that when she was going to nursing school her uncle told her she was wasting her time and money because no one would ever hire a black nurse..she was the company nurse over four ltc and two of the dons she supervised were also black

nursing and teaching of all professions needs to be based on competence and not color [or gender etc]

Actually, Nursing has been just as discriminatory as any other line of work. There used to be no blacks allowed in white schools of nursing, whites would not nurse blacks and blacks could not nurse whites or get care at white hospitals. Or they could be cared for only by the rare black nurse or doctor on staff at such hospitals. It's only in the last 40 years or so that things have been integrated. And think about apartheid in South Africa.

[sallyinchicago]

Hi BradleyRN!

Got a question for you. Is your point that racism and sexism do not exist? We need to grappel with the reality of racism and sexism before we can change it.

If you are saying that black nurses do not get paid as much as white nurses because they do not negotiate, my question for you is, how do you know that? Have you interviewed black nurses extensively to speak on this? Have you conducted research on the subject? How can you so freely and so concretely say that racism is not the reason black nurses do not get paid as much as white nurses?

I have worked in corporate america, and in government, and I got paid less than many people who I had more experience than. I am black, they were white and asain. I negotiated during my interview, but there you have it.

I think that for centuries, people who feel guilty or uncomfortable with the idea that racism even exists (or that people would speak about it openly) have offered "other explanations" as to why racism may not in fact be the issue. There is always something else to blame racism or sexism on, isn't there? Negotiation, black nurses' choice to work in inner city hospitals, presupposition of racism, etc. But I will tell you this. I am a black woman, and I live here in the US. I have been all over the world, and I can tell you, as sad as it is to say, does exist, and is alive and well. Maybe we should all think about that, and what that means for our children, and try our hardest to open up our minds and hearts, spend time with people of different races.

It is very easy (and it gets us nowhere) in the racism debate by constantly explaining it away like Bradley RN has chosen to do. It just keeps us in the same place that we were before. It doesn't keep the dialogue going, it doesn't illuminate or change anyone's thinking. Again, we need to grappel with the reality of race before we can change it.

[PiPhi2004]

Originally Posted by sallyinchicago

Hi BradleyRN!

Got a question for you. Is your point that racism and sexism do not exist? We need to grappel with the reality of racism and sexism before we can change it.

If you are saying that black nurses do not get paid as much as white nurses because they do not negotiate, my question for you is, how do you know that? Have you interviewed black nurses extensively to speak on this? Have you conducted research on the subject? How can you so freely and so concretely say that racism is not the reason black nurses do not get paid as much as white nurses?

I have worked in corporate america, and in government, and I got paid less than many people who I had more experience than. I am black, they were white and asain. I negotiated during my interview, but there you have it.

I think that for centuries, people who feel guilty or uncomfortable with the idea that racism even exists (or that people would speak about it openly) have offered "other explanations" as to why racism may not in fact be the issue. There is always something else to blame racism or sexism on, isn't there? Negotiation, black nurses' choice to work in inner city hospitals, presupposition of racism, etc. But I will tell you this. I am a black woman, and I live here in the US. I have been all over the world, and I can tell you, as sad as it is to say, does exist, and is alive and well. Maybe we should all think about that, and what that means for our children, and try our hardest to open up our minds and hearts, spend time with people of different races.

It is very easy (and it gets us nowhere) in the racism debate by constantly explaining it away like Bradley RN has chosen to do. It just keeps us in the same place that we were before. It doesn't keep the dialogue going, it doesn't illuminate or change anyone's thinking. Again, we need to grappel with the reality of race before we can change it.

He was just offering another side to the argument. I think it is very narrow minded to not look at BOTH sides and to possibly think that there may be something else that is an issue in this case instead of just looking at stats and saying "yep this is a racial issue." He thought outside the box and I commend him for his comments and thoughts. You have your own personal experiences which is fine and if you have been discriminated against then I am sorry about that for you. I truly believe there was racism that occurred like this IN THE PAST but should we really live in the past? Just my .

[♪♫ in my ♥]

Originally Posted by zahryia

Nursing has long been a ladder up for minority women, but a new state study shows that in New York City, black nurses get paid less than their white counterparts.

Seems like a pretty good reason to have collective bargaining with its resultant uniform contracts and open salary ladders.

[TheCommuter]

Originally Posted by CHATSDALE

nursing has been traditionally been a place where discrimination is not allowed

Actually, racial refusals are still common in some areas. Some Caucasian patients refuse to be taken care of by African-American nurses, and some American black patients refuse care from white nurses. If a racial refusal is not a form of discrimination, then I don't know what else is.

[♪♫ in my ♥]

Originally Posted by TheCommuter

If a racial refusal is not a form of discrimination, then I don't know what else is.

It seems to be the very definition of the word, doesn't it?

[SKM-NURSIEPOOH]

Originally Posted by PiPhi2004

"... I truly believe there was racism that occurred like this IN THE PAST but should we really live in the past? Just my ".

There are dangers in not remembering or looking in the past in order to move forward in the future. We all are aware that "history has a way of repeating itself..." when we don't pay attention ! Why on earth would you that people are living in the past on this (or any) sticky situation, especially if we could learn from past mistakes?

Just my - Ciao,
Moe

[SharonH, RN]

Originally Posted by dee78

BradleyRN said it all. I don't believe most articles written about statistics because they are almost always skewed.

I am not saying that it doesn't happen, just that you must look at all of the facts.

The only facts presented were that Black nurses make less than White nurses and that Black nurses were more likely to work at public hospitals which pay less. Those were the only facts presented in the story. The possible causes of this discrimination i.e. lack of negotiation, racism etc. are only speculation at this point. Looking at all of the facts available to us, you have a study which notes that all things being equal, one group is making more than the other. Therefore you have to look at what is different about the two groups. In this case, it's race so it's not unreasonable for someone to conclude that racism might be a factor. That conclusion may eventually turn out to be wrong, but my point is that it's not unreasonable to think that way. This knee-jerk "no racism" reaction is just as bad as the "yes absolutely racism" reaction without any evidence. The point is, we don't know why....we'll have to wait for the follow-up study..........but in the meantime I am very comfortable with forming my opinion based on the facts presented and my own personal experiences.

[SharonH, RN]

Originally Posted by PiPhi2004

You have your own personal experiences which is fine and if you have been discriminated against then I am sorry about that for you. I truly believe there was racism that occurred like this IN THE PAST but should we really live in the past? Just my .

If someone has personally experienced discrimination, then they are not living in the past, are they?

[SteveRN21]

~SharonHRN~The only facts presented were that Black nurses make less than White nurses and that Black nurses were more likely to work at public hospitals which pay less. Those were the only facts presented in the story.

Exactly. I work in a hospital that is probably 75% Filipino/Indian nurses. I am a minority because I am both caucasian and male. Nearly all management positions are filled with Filipinos. I make the same amount of money that all night-shift nurses with their BSN, certification and 3 years experience make, regardless of race.

I shy away from the sensationalism of the knee-jerk "oh, it's racism!" reaction. I have never been African American, and therefore can't claim to know exactly how much true racism goes on in the healthcare field. I can only simply look at the facts presented, and analyze them for reliability, as well as factual evidence and nonbias. There is simply not enough info in this article to definitively say "this is all due to racism." It is speculation, which disqualifies it in my book.

The extremely high proportion of unionized facilities in NYC, coupled with an extremely diverse workforce leads me to believe that there has to be more to this than racism. In my NYSNA facility (NYP) if you are a nurse with a pulse, you are hired at a base salary rate. If you work nights, you receive a set stipend. If you have your bachelors, or certification in your specialty, you get a set amount. You receive a set amount for each year experience you have. It is IMPOSSIBLE to negotiate. I can see how it could look like the "white nurse" made more. (If the "white nurse" wasn't exaggerating her salary, like we all tend to do.) Say the African-American nurse worked days, no OT, had her ADN, and no certification. This would add up to well over $10,000 she ISN'T making, compared to the caucasian nurse.

Unionized facilities' contracts leave no room for discrimination. That, coupled with the fact that white nurses are the minority in most NYC hospitals, leads me to believe that this is not the issue....