[newhere_noname]

Here is my question for educators.

I'm wondering how to decrease the drop out rate in nursing schools but I first need to know what the students reasons are for dropping out.

My thought is that some students apply because they want to be a nurse but like most of the general public don't know exactly what a nurse does besides follow MD orders, administer medications and make patients comfortable. They are surprised when they find out how much more is involved including the extra heavy load of coursework/study time and figured it was more then they bargained for and leave. Am I way off base here or is there a percentage of student's that fit this category?

What are the more common reasons for student leaving school?

What is the drop out rate at your school?

Thanks, Karen

[suanna]

I'm not sure I would want to commit to the goal of "reducing the drop out rate". Nursing is a demanding and difficult profession. If you discover you aren't cut out for nursing while in school-good for you- drop out before you end up miserable or leaving the profession earily. The only way of reducing the drop out rate that makes sense is to find a way to "pre screen" students for aptitude and intrest before they take a position in the school. In my area thare is a strong outreach to local high schoolers to let them know about nursing as a career. They have a number of "pre nursing" programs in the local schools that allow kids to spend a day on a floor shadowing a nurse to see what nursing as all about. I can tell you , if I had known then what I know now you wouldn't be getting this reply from me on "AllNurses.com"-maybe "all travelagents.com", or "allbartenders.com", or "all.........

[SarasotaRN2b]

Well, I just finished my first semester of nursing school and out of 43 students, I believe we lost about 1/3. Reasons included realizing nursing isn't the career for them or they were failing. Between a high attrition rate and a low NCLEX pass rate, the nursing program is making some changes (finally!!!). They've raised their grading scale so that to pass nursing you need at least an 80. They feel that if you aren't getting at least an 80, you'll have a harder time passing the NCLEX. They are also raising the admission criteria, requiring that applicants have at least a B in the major prereqs such as A&P. I'm all for it as it will mean that merit actually will count and those nursing applicants that really work hard and want it will have a better chance of getting in faster.

Kris

[SN_Advocate]

Kris and suanna thanks for your replies.

It looks like the bigger reasons include not making the grade and realizing nursing is not for them.

For those who don't make the grade my heart goes out to them. Granted you can't practice safely without knowing all your basic nursing knowledge. However, there's so much more to learn in today's nursing program then the programs of 50 years ago. Your high school honor student may very well keep up and learn it all in 4 semesters but it's a lot to ask of a someone that maybe struggled a bit as a student. Maybe if the program was stretched out they could handle course load and become great nurses.

Are there any programs that recognize these students and work with them to keep them in school at a slower pace?

For those instructors working with schools that have evening programs that of fall/spring/summer - fall/spring/summer and traditional full time (ADN)programs of four semesters. Do you think there is more of a flunk out rate in the traditional program?

[Farmer Jane]

Some may not appreciate this reply but, well...

I think a big part of the problem is that nursing is not perceived as a career for the "best and the brightest." In general (there are plenty of exceptions), the best and the brightest major in science, engineering, etc. So that leaves nursing with a lot of average or below average students who really can't hack it.

I actually think nursing curriculum should be significantly more difficult. Of course, that would turn off a ton of people in the short run but in the long term we could potentially (along with other actions that are also pie-in-the-sky thinking but I can wish anyway) begin attracting more of the "best and the brightest" and improve the standard of nursing knowledge for the entire profession.

[newhere_noname]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

I think a big part of the problem is that nursing is not perceived as a career for the "best and the brightest." In general (there are plenty of exceptions), the best and the brightest major in science, engineering, etc. So that leaves nursing with a lot of average or below average students who really can't hack it.

There is a certain amount of basic knowledge you need before your sit for your boards. I feel most average students would make great nurses given an average course load. If it takes them an extra year to gain the knowledge so be it.

Does this have more to do with the faculty shortage? Is this dropout more of a numbers game? Are the schools accepting 100 students knowing some will drop out (personal reasons/nursing not for them) but only legally able to train 50 due to instructor/student ratios and so during the first semesters they have to crank up the difficulty until they balence out the class size to fit the number of instructors?

Am I wrong with that thought? Can you imaging the self esteem of a student who flunks out of community college? Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

Karen

[elkpark]

Originally Posted by SNJourney

Does this have more to do with the faculty shortage? Is this dropout more of a numbers game? Are the schools accepting 100 students knowing some will drop out (personal reasons/nursing not for them) but only legally able to train 50 due to instructor/student ratios and so during the first semesters they have to crank up the difficulty until they balence out the class size to fit the number of instructors?

In my state (I can't speak for any others), the number of "slots" or "seats" in each nursing program is authorized by the state BON based on the number of students the school/faculty can accommodate given the established/required student/faculty ratios. Schools have to apply to the BON and demonstrate that they have sufficient faculty and clinical sites (to accommodate the greater number of students) in order to get permission to accept more students. So, no, what you describe is not a factor, or even a possibility, in my state.

[Hopefull2009]

I can't speak for every school...but at my school, it's a wonder they don't have more students dropping out. My school program has been nothing short of a disappointment.

The faculty are not teaching us nursing. They lecture, but questions are treated as a "nuisence" and an "interruption". We have two days of lecture and an exam. Exams are not covered in class so all of us can benefit from each other's mistakes.

Pharmacology is a self-taught course...so personally, other than the book, I don't think that we should have to pay for it. I didn't sign up for a distance-learning nursing program, I signed up for a CAMPUS based nursing program.

Complaints? Like talking to a brick wall. It doesn't matter if you have the signature of every single nursing student protesting something...it falls on deaf ears.

We had a question on one exam where 100% of the students missed it. Every one.. Do you think that question got thrown out? Nope...b/c the professor insisted that she went over the subject matter in class...but my recording of the lecture states otherwise...but if you tell her she's wrong...she'll just ban recordings. Not the first time it happened either.

Think one question doesn't make any difference? It does....ONE question caused me to get a B instead of an A this semester...you think I can argue that? Nope.

This is what I call the "God complex"...and it has no place in education. There is a distinct difference between people being in charge vs thinking they are incapable of making a mistake.

I can't even tell you what drugs are common in a hospital because no one has ever told us. I can tell you the adverse affects of probalby over 100 drugs by now, but probably can't tell you what any of them are SUPPOSED to be prescribed for...b/c they don't teach us that....so how am I supposed to double-check behind a doctor to protect myself legally?

Clinicals, are a joke.

We go into the facility, we are assigned to an LPN (in a RN program), and our instructor disappears for the rest of the shift. No one watches anything I am doing. I was sent in to do a head to toe post partum assessment on a patient with a c-section...(24 hours post-op).

They sent me in KNOWING I had never done one before nor had we covered this in class at all. I never saw anyone go in and check behind me. This woman could have easily had something seriously wrong with her and I wouldn't have known the difference.

The staff at the hospitals that we are paired with never seem to know anything about what we can and cannot do as nursing students. Some of them don't even want to be paired with a student that day--and you quickly figure that out after you get snapped at a few times.

If you go to the instructors with an issue, I get, "You'll be fine" or "You worry too much". They don't seem to care that I CARE about my progress.

I can't speak for all schools...just mine. If I could finish my coursework at another school I would by now.

I am doing an externship this summer because I feel I'll be in trouble post-graduate if I don't.

[ceecel.dee]

Originally Posted by newhere_noname

Can you imaging the self esteem of a student who flunks out of community college?
Karen

This is not done. Can you imagine the stress and hardship involved on instructors who would have to do this?
The failure of students to make the grade is extremely stressful on the instructors, who evaluate and reevaluate instruction methods and test questions and content ad nauseum. Programs are not designed to flunk students...the students are the ones who flunk a program. It is a rigorous program by design...it must be!...thank god for that as these students will be taking care of me and mine someday!

Is it worse on one's self esteem to flunk out of a community college than somewhere else?

[newhere_noname]

Originally Posted by ceecel.Dee

Th
The failure of students to make the grade is extremely stressful on the instructors, who evaluate and reevaluate instruction methods and test questions and content ad nauseum. Programs are not designed to flunk students...the students are the ones who flunk a program. It is a rigorous program by design...it must be!...thank god for that as these students will be taking care of me and mine someday!

Is it worse on one's self esteem to flunk out of a community college than somewhere else?

From all the stories I hear from students about ADN program the difficulty level exceeds the level of other AD programs by very large margin. Students report crying (due to stress) more then once during their course of study appears to be a common thread.

School shouldn't make you cry.

I realize today's nursing program is rigorous and I agree it has to be to include all that a nurse is responsible for in today's health care.

If a student in a 4 year school, most any given major, is failing, common advice is to transfer to a community college and see how you do and then you can always get your 4 year degree at a later date.

If a student fails out of Community College you can't advise them to go back to high school. And you wouldn't because you know that an ADN program is the most difficult program in the college. I'm sure it's difficult for the professors to let go of any aspiring nurse. Do you get the option of second tracking them so if they can't get the material in the time alloted in the current ADN track they can continue with a lighter load and more time to complete the program? Or do you have no other choice but to let them go?


I'd love to hear your feedback!!
Karen