[llg]

One of the problems seems to me to be that so many ADN programs keep adding requirements to the point where they approximate a BSN program. That fuels the fires of discords because it decreases the difference between the academic degrees. The original intent of the ADN degree was to prepare a basic, beginner-level nurse for the bedside in 2 years -- no higher expectation and no more requirements.

However, as ADN requirements and expectations have increased, it is no wonder that their graduates are angry when they are not considered to have an education equal to that of the BSN's. I think the anger is sometimes being directed at the wrong people -- the BSN's. That anger should be directed at the ADN program administrators and faculty who keep lengthening their programs and trying to establish a set of unrealistic expectations for their students and graduates.

I don't think the different level are the main problem -- it is that the different levels have been blurred. If the levels were kept distinct, with clear sets of requirements and expectations of each level, there would be far fewer problems.

llg

[gaulkari]

Maybe everyone should go back to the reason we are here at all. Most of us want to be nurses in some capacity. Nursing schools try to prepare their students for what will face them when they are on the floor faced with real life people who depend on them. ADN programs get harder and harder because if they don't the nurses turned out from their programs will not become RN's. Both BSN and ADN turn out grads that are excellent and some that are not. I respect the education and ability combined of all different levels of nursing. I personally have my ADN and will be starting on my BSN. I do it because I feel in our field if we don't continue our education we are letting our patients down and ourselves. Each day we need to work together to gain the respect we deserve.

[orrnlori]

I don't believe I used the word drive, I used the word engaged. And my question was more in asking how the criteria was set up for the BSN in clinical observation as a rule. Most of my AAS nurses come with a set of structured observations in writing they need to involve themselves in, the BSN's don't seem to do that unless they are motivated beyond their BSN.

I also don't see nurses who work side by side having a problem with their so called levels and I agree that much of that comes from outside, but it also comes from above.

So are you advocating that ALL nursing schools have one curriculum for the BSN. I can tell you from looking at BSN programs from all over the country, they come in every color and size. Some emphasize strong science content, some are very strong in the arts, some have religion classes attached. But I can guarantee you that all are different from each other so as to be quite obstructive in getting to the goal.

And HelloNurse, I agree with you, it's a very long way around the barn with most programs and they are highly inflexible. It is what it is. If the goal is to have an educated graduate then the education should be valued above a rigid set of classes whose very nature changes depending on what school one looks at.

I found a decent number of master's programs however that are quite flexible in what you come to the table with as long as you are a practicing registered nurse, thus, why I chose the BS route rather than extending my education and additional two years just to get to a master's program.

I would propose that until WE decide what we think a nurse is and needs, that schools will not be inclined to assist easily in our education. Education is afterall a business.

And llg, I agree that the ADN programs have become much more than 2 years. The very very least you can do most two year programs in is about 2 1/2 years taking a suicide load of classes. But is the answer to cut back at the ADN level or extend at the BSN level? And what about the question of the same number of nursing hours in each degree?

[llg]

Originally Posted by orrnlori

And llg, I agree that the ADN programs have become much more than 2 years. The very very least you can do most two year programs in is about 2 1/2 years taking a suicide load of classes. But is the answer to cut back at the ADN level or extend at the BSN level? And what about the question of the same number of nursing hours in each degree?

Good question ... but I don't think it is a matter of hours. It's a matter of focus and emphasis. The ADN could focus on the basic "staff nurse" level skills with minimal content related to leadership, management, research, education, etc. The BSN would include the basic "staff nurse" level skill AND ALSO include the leadership, management, research, and education content necessary for more advanced roles. The BSN would, of course, also include more liberal arts content in keeping with the goal of most colleges to produce a generally well-rounded graduate with a broad, general knowledge of the world and an educated mind.

This was the original intent ... with the bachelor's degree aiming for a broad education consistent with traditional concepts of university education and leadership ... and the associate's degree more geared toward technical preparation for a specific, entry-level or mid-level job. We lost that focus as employers ignored the educational background of job applicants and community colleges started to add more and more content to raise the level of their graduates.

By the way ... I will have to leave this discussion over the weekend because I use my computer at work. Please don't be offended if I don't participate again until Monday.

llg

[athomas91]

I cannot refer to all programs... what i can tell you is that my program was in my opinion phenomenal....it was very difficult didactically and clinically...our instructors were only allowed to instruct part-time as they were required to work in whatever part of nursing they instructed in order to stay current (which i feel is VITAL)...our final semester - we had to seek out an area of interest, secure a preceptor and work his/her hours (120 hrs)
i was required to know how to read ekg's...i was required to know all the vital cardiac drugs (generic and brand), i was required to know acls protocols.

this said program has dropped it's standards considerably from what i have heard due to the shortage. they are letting those slip by who should not be allowed to slip by, they are letting some in the programs who have no right being there. and therein i believe lies the problem..and likely why you are seeing a lower "grade" of nurses all around.

and i agree w/ the thought that there should be some type of uniformity to programs...i mean there has to be somewhat in order to be accredited...but is there enough uniformity that the same caliber of nurses are being put through?

[orrnlori]

Well the problem I would think with changing BSN classes to more management, leadership, etc.-oriented without increasing the actual nursing hours would be that you'd be turning out nurses who might be able to manage but not nurse. And no manager is effective unless they know what nurses really do. So I don't know about that. I know that at our flagship university the time it takes just to get through the university studies requirement is 2 1/2 years if you carry 12+ hours per semester, and that's for everybody no matter what your major is. So that leaves 1 1/2 years to the nursing core, which as I stated was the same for the AAS. So then the issue becomes should it be a 5 year degree rather than a 4 year degree or does it make more sense to delete some of the standard university requirements and replace them with more nursing, which is what I'd like to see happen but make the nursing classes tougher.

I think the consistency issue is really more pertinent and will become more so as people begin to look to the internet for their continuing education. I have looked at RN-BSN programs from all over the country, probably somewhere around 30+. And in every instance there is NO consistency in core requirements. Like another poster stated you get to where your total hours to complete gets well into the number of hours to be half way through a master's degree. In talking to schools, they are very rigid and will not even consider a student not completing core requirements or making substitutions before entering the BSN, which sometimes leads one to 50 or more hours on top of 90 existing hours they may have from their AAS. I don't necessarily blame the nursing program departments for this as much as the administration of the school.

I keep hearing that the students who are coming out of nursing programs are not high quality people. But that seems difficult to understand based on several factors, the largest factor is the difficulty of the actual nursing programs themselves. I've never yet encountered a single nurse who didn't think that nursing school was pure hell. Also they have to get through the famous "weed out" classes before they can even make application to the nursing programs. How can they be less intelligent, capable, motivated than their predecessors?

[ocankhe]

Whatever field of endeavor you are in that has more then one methodolgy of education for entrance to that feild you will have controversy. It is the nature of the beast.
Remeber no one really learns Nusing in school. Nursing is learned through out your working carreer. It is a life long endeavor.

[Havin' A Party!]

In my view, the principal advantage of the BSN over the ADN is that it's broader in its coverage of non-technical subjects (humanities, etc.). And also that, because it takes a bit longer to complete, will likely yield an older, perhaps more mature graduate.

However let's not forget that many new entrants to nursing may have even broader / more comprehensive degrees (sometimes multiple degrees are involved) and work / life experiences than the typical BSN student.

Seems a little ludicrous to look at these folks as anything less than extremely capable, and thus should be welcomed with open arms.

To me just about any bachelor's, master's or doctorate degree coupled with an ADN is a powerful combination.

[traumaRUs]

Gosh - I always promise myself that I won't get pulled into these ADN vs BSN discussions, but something one poster said piqued my interest. Outside influences are going to push nursing to the forefront of news coverage and to some extent, already have. Most people in the US know there is a nursing shortage and know that it might affect the care they or their families receive. I think that ANY RN who is conscientious, caring and intelligent is a joy to work with. That said, I also am in the process of upgrading my education. Why? Because in this day and age, you can't rest on your laurels. You must always strive to go farther and progress. Maybe its getting ACLS or PALS, maybe becoming a SANE nurse, or maybe its getting your BSN, MSN or PhD. Whatever we decide as individuals to do for ourselves should be applauded. Our country thrives on diversity. (Judi steps off podium)

[orrnlori]

Thank you Larry, that is my point entirely. It is unfortunate that universities and colleges who design programs don't take this sort of common sense into account when looking at a potential candidate to a BSN program and why I am so excited that there are several MSN programs that DO get the concept.

The origin of this post was that there should be a higher threshold to entry level nursing but IMHO it is the education system that places barriers to this in the form of rigid systems in core requirements and extraneous electives that keep many people from obtaining higher degrees. Although education is becoming more flexible with various delivery systems like streaming video, blackboard, etc., they are still shutting out very competent existing nurses by throwing up more and more hurdles. This hurts us all. With the cost of education spiralling upward every year, not being flexible in education is shutting out all the theories espoused about the need for nurses to have more nursing education. I completely agree we need more education, I just believe that flexibilty and common sense needs to be thrown into the equation.