[TexasGas]

paindoc,

You conveniently left off anesthesiologists' pay. I assume that you feel that the surgeon should be paid more than the gas man in all instances, right?

You are barking up the wrong tree. The CERTIFIED and TRAINED anesthesia provider is in dire times of a massive shortage of workers. It is no different that the pay scale is skewed to need. A premise of supply and demand. Many CRNA programs have upped enrollment and improved distance learning options to facilitate filling these voids, as it will only get worse. It gets worse r/t baby boomers and roughly 30-35% of current CRNAs admit they plan on retiring by year 2015.

If you really want to put "disturbing and unfair" pay inequalities on this board, lets talk bad about the drug reps. I was one for 7 years. With a lowly BS in Zoology, I managed to out earn many of the posted averages you listed. I was actually in healthcare, earning more than some docs, and just had a lowly undergrad degree. I say lowly BS degree since you only award those you deem suitable to accept pay on a scale. In other words, you don't think that if someone went through exactly the steps to become a professional that you prefer, they do not merit higher than average pay or recognition that their education may actually be unsurpassed in exactly the scope of practice of which those people engage. You tend to place a great deal of value in what the degree level is and NOT what education it actually represents. How does it feel to waste so much of your time trying to make us feel bad for wanting to have a great career, where we care effectively and safely for patients and are also rewarded? You should take up golf. Most docs are pretty good at that, i know, I used to pay for it.

[GregRN]

What a poor, poor site. Those figures are far off. Most compensation analysts will start with salary.com because of their methodologies and data collection and pick it apart from there. I have many friends who are doctors and they make nowehere near that amount. Those figures are very, very low. But, as we all know, if you want to make a point, we can find whatever info we need to support it. Tail wagging the dog.

Speaking of, despite the poor information, what is your point paindoc?

http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/20...ion_Review.pdf

The above site is from a variety of sources, by the way, not just one. Further, it's from 2005, and even one of average intelligence would expect the salaries to be much higher than quoted here. I spent 9 years in staffing and recruiting, including placing MD's in a variety of jobs, from permanent to locum tenens. How embarrassing it would be had I called MD's for positions and quoted salaries you listed?

Should your salary be higher than those listed here, I would guess you, as well, are overpaid. Thank your lucky stars.

[GregRN]

.....

[GregRN]

With all that training and education, you would think the morbidity and mortality rates of MD's vs. CRNA's would be significantly lower. But they're the same, and that, frankly, should be embarrassing, if one is going to place as much value on education. Hospital administrators, paindoc, are well aware of this, as well as MDA attendings. I would guess it's less than 5% of you anesthesiologists who continue this game. The rest see the value in CRNA's providing the same level of anesthesia services for less money. But, when you get to the politicians with this info, they will ask what the difference is in morbidity and mortality rates amongst MD's vs. CRNA's, because it's the results that matter, not spin. And, be sure you share with them your salaries quoted here. I'm sure they'd see much more money to be saved in getting other MD's in line with those salaries, vs. just the anesthesia arena.

Until you can show me that your far superior training results in far superior results, you and your organization's words are just rhetoric and saber rattling. Just the facts, just the facts.

[GregRN]

Originally Posted by urgewrx

Thanks paindoc for providing hardcore evidence on a statement I made on another thread. These inflated salaries are totally ridiculous for the level of training. As soon as Medicare and other private insurers adjust the payscale for nurse anesthesia, the party is over. And it WILL HAPPEN

Level of training...level of training...level of training. Is that all you have to offer? Show me results. Show me that an MDA's level of training directly correlates to an increased level of results in delivering anesthesia and decreasing morbidity and mortality rates. Seriously, show me.

[deepz]

If all-physician-provider anesthesia was so great, stats would show that the countries of ye olde British Empire, with only docs passing gas, to be clearly safer and otherwise superior to our stats in the USA. No such proof exists, nor will it ever.

QED

[neurogeek]

Looking at paindocs salary quotes seems a bit surreal. Here in Texas the docs are making a lot higher than those quoted. I have a dear friend who is an MDA and is making over $400,000 per year at a local hospital. I also have another dear friend who is a plastic surgeon and he's making over $600,000 per year. And I also have another very, very close family relation who is a hospitalist who is making over $200,000 per year. Now, with CRNA salaries in this area averaging $120,000-160,000, how is it that we are so close in range to these docs? Please tell me again, because I am missing something here. Does anyone notice that the nay sayers on this site, paindoc and urgewrx, seem to be physicians who don't really care for CRNA's? I have read some of their comments on physician websites that are really disturbing, very negative, and downright malicious. As this is a CRNA website I would think that they could at least show a bit of respect while visiting here, as we would if we visitied their forums, don't ya'll agree?

[platon20]

Originally Posted by GregRN

With all that training and education, you would think the morbidity and mortality rates of MD's vs. CRNA's would be significantly lower. But they're the same, and that, frankly, should be embarrassing, if one is going to place as much value on education. Hospital administrators, paindoc, are well aware of this, as well as MDA attendings. I would guess it's less than 5% of you anesthesiologists who continue this game. The rest see the value in CRNA's providing the same level of anesthesia services for less money. But, when you get to the politicians with this info, they will ask what the difference is in morbidity and mortality rates amongst MD's vs. CRNA's, because it's the results that matter, not spin. And, be sure you share with them your salaries quoted here. I'm sure they'd see much more money to be saved in getting other MD's in line with those salaries, vs. just the anesthesia arena.

Until you can show me that your far superior training results in far superior results, you and your organization's words are just rhetoric and saber rattling. Just the facts, just the facts.

Thats funny I was going to say the EXACT SAME THING about the hostile CRNA attitudes towards AAs.

Lets not pretend the AANA has clean hands here. They are just as dirty and hypocritical as the ASA/MDAs.

[TexasGas]

Originally Posted by platon20

Thats funny I was going to say the EXACT SAME THING about the hostile CRNA attitudes towards AAs.

Lets not pretend the AANA has clean hands here. They are just as dirty and hypocritical as the ASA/MDAs.

But saying the EXACT same thing doesn't hold true. Not at all. The mortality/morbidity rates are compared between all cases of anesthesia, SPECIFICALLY including settings where the CRNA has absolutely NO supervision. An AA cannot have that information, since that venue doesn't exist.

AAs are not allowed to perform anesthesia without direction form a physician. CRNAs can. AAs cannot be directly reimbursed from medicare, CRNAs can.

CRNAs are independent providers of anesthesia, AAs are not. There is not an Apples/Apples comparison of of safety between these two professions.

[deepz]

Originally Posted by platon20

....Lets not pretend the AANA has clean hands here. They are just as dirty and hypocritical as the ASA/MDAs.

Baloney. If you didn't have such a transparent agenda, you might have noticed that AANA tactics have evolved in response to unrelenting ATTACKS by the A$A on CRNAs' competence, safety and independence. Of course we defend ourselves. We aren't trying to eliminate anyone's job, they are. Over and over and over. And AAs are an integral part of their attacks.


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