[proclivity]

[quote=neurogeek;2278050]

Originally Posted by proclivity

you're obviously an exception as are most CRNAs, for that matter.

Taking into consideration your post, you must admit that a vast majority of BSN prepared nurses are most likely not able to hack the pre-med classes. Simply out of lack of patience of being able to sit still for 6 hours and study or just because they think it is useless and many only take what they need to take in order to get their degree. quote]

Wow. That's pretty insulting. I don't think it's very kind, or accurate, to state that most nurses can't "hack the pre-med classes". Wow. I"m in shock. YOu are a nurse, right? I think you are correct when you stated that most do not because they choose not to for whatever reason. But saying that they can't is another thing. By the way, I know many, many nurses who have taken a lot of the pre-med courses. You make nurses sound like that are of inferior intelligence to doctors. Please tell me that was not your intent.

The OP talked about a response to doctor frustrations and it expanded to the ever present doctor nurse rift.

It should come as no surprise that nurses aren't able to take the medical school classes.

1)They don't have the time or the patience to do so when in nursing school.
2) it certainly is not a whole lot of bang for your buck considering that they will usually not be applying the knowledge gained and therefore lose it.
3) They have no reason to unless, of course, they want to go to medical school some day.

Nowhere did i say that nurses have an inferior intelligence. if you read my post on page six, you'll see that i talked about how different medical schools and nursing schools are in regards to admittance. Medical school is more standardized with regards to the MCAT and the requirements are more stringent. They interview everyone they admit to their college. I would hope that all physicians are smarter and sharper than i am, i may be in their care one day and my life could depend on their decisions.

my point is that it is fruitless to compare the two fields when the only thing they have in common is the fact that we both work in the hospital. You coming around and saying that i implied that nurses are less intelligent was unfounded, in my opinion. I said that a "vast majority" wouldn't be able to because they would lose interest, not find it useful to nursing, do very poorly, or they wouldn't have the patience to sit for hours on end and study 2 chapters of organic chemistry.

Case in point, the Ohio State Univ College of nursing prereqs, where i graduated, are Psychology 100, Sociology 100, Anatomy 199, Math 116, Human Nutrition 315, 2 chemistry classes (something else that i can't remember right now) and people walk into nursing school with a 3.7+ GPA. However, people apply to medical school with the same kinds of GPA after taking the med school prereqs (we all know what they are), taking the MCAT and scoring in the top 15-20% of everyone that took the MCAT just to have a chance at medical school. There is just no point in comparing the two, they are two different beasts completely.

[proclivity]

Originally Posted by neurogeek

[ I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.

I know that you have a very valid point here, but please don't assume that all nurses are just too dumb to excel at the same subjects as physicians. Many of us, myself included, have either taken additional pre-med courses or have additional degress such as in Biology or Chemistry. Having taken inorganic and organic chemistry and made "A's" in both coursees I find it a bit insulting that you believe a nurse isn't capable of this feat. Most of the med schools only require general physics, not quantum physics, and it's not that difficult of a course if you understand trig and algebra (yes, I took physics and made an A). So many of us have had the same undergrad courses as many of the physicians, by our choice for whatever reason.

it seems as though you were planning on attending medical school.....did you take the MCAT and apply?........

[valentine_baby]

I too am offended that you assume that my CHOICE not to attend medical school means I was not capable of doing so!

I am a woman and chose CRNA as a career b/c it was one that I could make a good salary WITHOUT becoming a slave to my job. It was a medical career I knew I would love (and I do) & I knew I could pay back while working PART-TIME if I wanted to at some point.

If I had gone to med school I could have NEVER chosen to work part-time. I would have been forced to work full-time FOREVER just to pay it back. I did not want that. I wanted children and a family----which I'm 32 and still haven't gotten around to yet but I can when I'm ready. And I wanted to have time to spend with my kids. I wanted to drop them off at school at attend soccer games. Otherwise, why have them?

My parents were not able to pay for my undergrad education much less my graduate MSN program, so obviously there's no way they could have paid for med school either. There's really no such thing as working "part-time" as a physician, and, so I very happily chose the route of becoming a CRNA so that I could become a mom and enjoy time with family and friends & my children working part-time. Working as a CRNA even part-time in the future will still allow me to make enough money to easily pay off my student loan debts without causing me financial stress.

I'll also have you know (the original poster) that I graduated summa cum laude with a double degree in Biochemistry and a BSN from a top-ranked state school---I could've gone to an Ivy League but my baby sister was born when I was 16 and I didn't want her to grow up with me on the wrong coast. And OH YEAH, I managed my first two degrees in 4 years---nearly 200 credit hours total. And I was a National Merit Scholar in high school which helped me get most of my undergraduate education paid for. I later graduated first in my class from a top-ranked CRNA school (a top five program).

Don't tell me I'm not capable of running with the big boys.

[dfk]

Originally Posted by valentine_baby

I too am offended that you assume that my CHOICE not to attend medical school means I was not capable of doing so!

I am a woman and chose CRNA as a career b/c it was one that I could make a good salary WITHOUT becoming a slave to my job. It was a medical career I knew I would love (and I do) & I knew I could pay back while working PART-TIME if I wanted to at some point.

If I had gone to med school I could have NEVER chosen to work part-time. I would have been forced to work full-time FOREVER just to pay it back. I did not want that. I wanted children and a family----which I'm 32 and still haven't gotten around to yet but I can when I'm ready. And I wanted to have time to spend with my kids. I wanted to drop them off at school at attend soccer games. Otherwise, why have them?

My parents were not able to pay for my undergrad education much less my graduate MSN program, so obviously there's no way they could have paid for med school either. There's really no such thing as working "part-time" as a physician, and, so I very happily chose the route of becoming a CRNA so that I could become a mom and enjoy time with family and friends & my children working part-time. Working as a CRNA even part-time in the future will still allow me to make enough money to easily pay off my student loan debts without causing me financial stress.

I'll also have you know (the original poster) that I graduated summa cum laude with a double degree in Biochemistry and a BSN from a top-ranked state school---I could've gone to an Ivy League but my baby sister was born when I was 16 and I didn't want her to grow up with me on the wrong coast. And OH YEAH, I managed my first two degrees in 4 years---nearly 200 credit hours total. And I was a National Merit Scholar in high school which helped me get most of my undergraduate education paid for. I later graduated first in my class from a top-ranked CRNA school (a top five program).

Don't tell me I'm not capable of running with the big boys.

you go girl. you are a girl, right? i mean, valentine baby, well, never mind. you go !!!!!

[Oldsalt]

I neither feel threatened nor upset by your post - but would like to take the time to thank you for it.

It has provided a degree of insight that many have found uncomfortable. Many have questioned your intent & truthfulness. I do not. For there is a clear difference. I am not too sure about the intelligence bend on your post - In my mind it is in terms of preparation rather than intelligence.

We are not schooled well (or in some cases ....not at all) in the art of differential diagnosis or actual medical management of pathologic states - from diagnostic, treatment, to resolution .....of which helps peri-operatively in management and recognition. Nor is our training in regional blocks (of which I have the training post grad - axill, scalene variations, fem, fa. iliacs, peribulbar, pop, etc..) up to par or even existing....Nor in chronic pain management, - the list goes on....Are many CRNAs really the "same"? No....

New grads, nor many in practice, actually get to do any of this - so when I hear someone in training or in practice say they are "as well trained as MDA" - upon questioning - they are far from it. Doing GA and central axis blocks is such a small component of practice.....Pushing drugs and flipping switches - I dare say...- my 10 year old can do that.

But being able to elaborate and extrapolate on a multiplicity of areas and levels - that shows thinking, training, and education.

This is not to say that the education is not available - it is - but only if one actively seeks it post graduation.

Preparation not intelligence - but thanks for your time and our post...

[MediHawk]

I agree with your post. There is a much higher level of academic rigor within a medical school curriculum that far exceeds what most people could tolerate. And, as you stated, this is the reason why only the brightest students are accepted. On the other hand, I certainly understand the sentiments of those people who were led to believe by your comment that only "less educated" people choose nursing.

Personally, I would have no problems getting into medical school, let alone completing it: 4.0 GPA in grad school, 3.95 undergrad in anthropology with organic, biochem, cell bio, physics, and microbiology, etc.--as just an example of some of my courses that I took; I am Phi Kappa Phi (top 10% of my graduating class) and Gama Beta Phi (top 15% of juniors); Dean's list every semester in college. And, I have alot of experience in the laboratory, research center, ER, ICU, and telemetry as a hospital corpsman. So, as you can see, I am certainly "educated". However, I chose nursing as a career since I enjoy overseeing the well being of my patients. Doctors do an outstanding job of diagnosing and treating the disease; however, nurses provide the physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being that plays a critical role in the recovery and overall health of the patient. The same can be said of the CRNA who plays a peri-operative role with the patient as it relates to the administering and monitoring of anesthesia.

I've chosen nursing since it is far less stressful than being a physician; and I have more flexibility to decide where I would like to work and how many hours I would like to work. In other words, there is a quality of life issue involved with my decision. To each his own, I guess. But, I never criticize another person for their career path. After all, we are part of the health care "team".

[stanman1968]

Look I do not see anyone jumping on FNP's if they say they can do a GP"S job. The truth is that a CRNA is just as capable of providing an anesthetic just as well as an anesthesiologist. We are not doctors, this is true. We did not take many of the courses that they did or spend as long in school. We are focused on one thing anesthesia. During a doctors education they will spend time rotating through many different areas then deciding the specialty they want, family medicine, surgery, anesthesia etc. Then they will spend x number of years learning that specialty. An anesthesia residency is 4 years, 1.5 years more the anesthesia school. So yeah in anesthesia we are equal in outcomes and abilities.

[deepz]

Originally Posted by stanman1968

....The truth is that a CRNA is just as capable of providing an anesthetic just as well as an anesthesiologist....

www.gaspasser.com/unique.html

d

[WanaBdun]

Although your post was interesting to a point that each person should be valued for their education, it takes away from the effort your put into your career. Based on what you wrote, I feel like you have a lack of confidence. That being said, I am not sure I would want you putting me to sleep! It takes prudent confidence in order to be good at anything. I am a firm believer that I can do anything I want. When it comes to patient care, we have to all work as a team to MANAGE the situation, even in ICU. I will be attending anesthesia school soon and will be starting at the bottom again. I have no fear of regaining confidence because I know the kind of person I am now, and that is someone who can do anything. If you had that much confidence in yourself maybe you wouldn't make it sound like you didn't work that hard for your degree.

On a side note, I value the MD's and Anesthesiologists that care for the ICU patients, but they are not gods of knowledge, just people with special training... LIKE YOU! You were not trained to care for that ICU patient in ICU. I don't even think there is room to compare the two as they are two different jobs and functions. I value them separately, but please, don't make the value intelligence.

P.S. I took chem, ochem, physics and biochem classes and got A's while working full time - so now you know another person that is capable of it!

[stanman1968]

I perform regional and general anesthesia every day to patient from 6 months old to 98 years old. "It aint bragging if you do it" And I do it every day safley.