[wembley1]

Hi guys,

Just seen some jobs advertised for physician assistants (PA's) paying 40k in the Midlands. What do you guys think of PA's, has anyone worked with PA's here in the UK? Think that it is a bit insulting that PA's are payed 40K plus whilst NP's are around 30-38 K, any reason PA's are paid more? Funny as PA's have to work under a physician unlike NP's. Seems to be that the health system is overlooking RN's/NP's in favour of these new roles, seems same thing going on for anaesthetic PA's, overlooking RN's. Love to hear your views, I think RN's really need to be proactive and protective of our roles and our advanced roles, seems to be more roles being created that will tell RN's what to do, and these PA's can be life science graduates with no health care experience...

[sharrie]

Have you got a link for that, if it is a NHS trust it would have to be under agenda for change which would make it at a band 8a but the advert would give a salary range rather than specific salary.

Be interested to investigate further.

This

is what I found which states that the salary range would be 28, 000 - 32,000 which I think is a band 6 salary range.

[sharrie]

actually just found it,

here

sounds like quite an exciting role.

Altough it's interesting that it is not banded as agenda for change, I imagine it's because it is paid out of doctor money and is under the umbrella of the medics. It's alot of money, and they don't even have prescribing abilities which many NP's now do.

I do think that the salary reflects the fact it is supported by the medics and they have written the job description and set the salary range, dissapointing that it will undermine and possibly alientate any NP's working alongside that role.

It's a shame that the nurse practitioners in the UK have not been recognised under A4C, the Nurse practitioners that I work with are band 6's and for the responsibility that they take on this is wholly inadeqate in my opinion.

[cariad]

plenty of PA;s over here, although some nurses I know have applied for these position,s. NPs also work with the physicians and their role seems to be comparable to a PA, but of course, theres no pay scale for hese positions over here, so all NP's and PA,s can get differing pay rates. some NPs dont earn as much as hospital nurses because its an "office" job.
maybe an american NP will post and give us more info.

[karenG]

this is not a new role- it was introduced around the time they set up the MSc in first contact nursing. so about 10yrs now!

to be a PA you need to be a science graduate and then follow a training course- if i remember rightly, they didnt need to be nurses. they dont work automonously, but follow protocols etc. The first ones came over from the states (the NP association was livid as I recall) and were paid mega bucks to come over... hence the huge salary. there was talk amongst NP's about doing the PA course to earn more money and carry less responsiblity!

so not a new thing.. just not many of them around.

[karenG]

Originally Posted by cariad

plenty of PA;s over here, although some nurses I know have applied for these position,s. NPs also work with the physicians and their role seems to be comparable to a PA, but of course, theres no pay scale for hese positions over here, so all NP's and PA,s can get differing pay rates. some NPs dont earn as much as hospital nurses because its an "office" job.
maybe an american NP will post and give us more info.

I know an NP in Virginia who has his own practice. he earns about $120K a year. not sure how that compared to nurses in the states but its more than most NP's here!

[ivanh3]

Originally Posted by cariad

plenty of PA;s over here, although some nurses I know have applied for these position,s. NPs also work with the physicians and their role seems to be comparable to a PA, but of course, theres no pay scale for hese positions over here, so all NP's and PA,s can get differing pay rates. some NPs dont earn as much as hospital nurses because its an "office" job.
maybe an american NP will post and give us more info.

I am NP student in the US and here is some info similar to what I have posted elsewhere on this site:

In the states I work with PAs and NPs quite often. I am in my first year of my masters for NP . From an "end result" standpoint there is really very little difference in the two professions (at least how they are used in the US). Both are considered "mid level" here, both require some oversight by a physician. (in the US the amount of oversight varies considerably for NPs from state to state, PAs work under physicians in all states), and both provide basically the same function. The patient would rarely be able to appreciate the difference. In fact most job listings for midlevels here looks something like "NP/PA wanted for....". The starting pay scale here is almost identical for the two: about 75,000 dollars US/year.
To be quite honest, there really is no need for both professions. I honestly think we have PAs here in the states because of the whole female/male dynamic that was much worse between docs and nurses when the various NP/PA programs were being developed. I think that the predominately male physicians profession of the 1960s preferred the idea of a male midlevel which was who the PA profession was marketed to in the beginning. Of course that is a crap notion, but I feel it is true. As women and the nursing profession in general have become more empowered the dynamic is different, and I don't think that those conditions exist to the same extent that they did. However, now we have these two professions that are 95 percent the same. I don't know if that dynamic exist in today's UK.
To the credit of PAs here, they are moving towards a masters degree (just like NPs weren't always masters degrees here). They have to have a lot sciences as prerequisite courses (more so than do nurses/NPs here in the states) and they do almost triple the amount of clinical hours than do NPs. Of course NPs have backgrounds as RNs and so IMHO, I think it all evens out in the end. If that is the case, then why not just focus on the one midlevel NP position and develop that to its fullest? But then as an RN and future NP I am sure I am biased.

Ivan

[sharrie]

Originally Posted by karenG

I know an NP in Virginia who has his own practice. he earns about $120K a year. not sure how that compared to nurses in the states but its more than most NP's here!

I have a friend who keeps suggesting that NP's in the UK should contract out and work independently much like the midwives do. As independent prescribers there is nothing to say that we have to work under the direction of a medic.

The thought of it scares me stupid , I like having the backup of my Doc

[ZippyGBR]

PAs in the uk

interesting but ... unless they are registered with the NMC or HPC they can't be named on PGDs so cannot supply or adminster PoMs and unless a Nurse or Pharmacist couldn't access prescriber training ... so any 'prescription' they wrote for a PoM would not be a valid 'direction to administer'...

[wembley1]

I agree, PA's have to prescribe under physician supervision, whereas NP's can prescribe independently. As has been shown in the USA, most jobs advertise for either a PA or NP. What irritates me about the UK is that they are advertising the PA course in nursing magazines and St Georges University is the latest to join in and will be offering a PA course. I think NP's need to be careful, protect their ground, but what I find interesting is as others mentioned, NP's only on bad 6, most would be band 7, 33-43k in London or similar, yet in Somerset, they are offering PA's with 2 years experience 40k plus benefits. I think the problem is the NP course, every few do an actual masters and a lot are termed a Bsc in nurse practitioner, I myself already have a bachelors so why would I do another? The education and protection of NP's needs to be looked at. In Australia, all NP course are at least PgD but most are masters level and the content is similar to the USA, fair amount of anatomy, pharmacology, diagnostic tests etc, whereas a lot of courses in the UK provide very basic levels of training. I think NP's as a group need to look at education and protection of their job roles, so PA's don't steal their ground. But I am still perplexed/confused, why use PA's in the UK why not just increase the scope of NP's. seems some NHS managers out their will always view nurses as just hand maidens, just good for basics. I hope NP's and nurses in general stand up....