[Q.]

Excellent post, Helen.

[rncountry]

I was watching TV tonight when an ad came on for an upcoming show that should be of interest to anyone who contemplates what being a pacifist can mean when ones country is attacked. It is called uprising. It is about the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII. For those that are not familiar with this, after the Nazi's surrounded the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw with the intent of starving them and deporting them, the Jews opted to fight back. Now what makes this a story is that up until that point it had been more or less a policy of,particularly, Eastern European Jews not to fight against their aggressors. To try to manage to live among others that were very different in culture as quietly as possible and even when attacked to not do anything in the hope that the attackers would not find a reason to attack even further. The Warsaw Jews did not do this. Their story is tragic and poingoint. My point here is the policy of passive inaction got 6 million Jews killed. The Inaction of what would generally be thought of good decent people helped kill those 6 million Jews. And please allow me to post a thought from a German Pastor from WWII.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller


It is my thought that the terrorists do not see the different races and religions of people of this country, they see only Americans. We have become truly a distinct race of our own, intermarried as we are. While we may still trace our roots to any number of ethnic groups to begin with, we do not actually live the culture of those groups. Our very way of life makes us a specific creed of people. These people don't care what color you are, they don't care what religion you are. They only know that you are an American and that makes you a fair target. And they don't care who else happens to be in the way. How many other countries lost citizens in the WTC attack? In the attacks on the embassies in Africa there were many more citizens of those countries killed them there were Americans, and some of those people where Muslims. All for the greater glory of God, right? These people are different from the Nazi's in only that they do not have a war machine in the traditional way we think of one. But make no mistake about it, they have a global network. Terrorists have attacked American citizens and soldiers with impunity for years now, being more or less passive about it has certainly not worked so far. I fail to see how it is going to now.

[3651bht]

And if you have seen my posts here and in other places you will know that I am not a college student... I just say to all of you who want to fight go ahead and stop making excuses... I'm too old I would if I could Woulda coulda shoulda See Americans want everything yesterday.. Martin Luther King took along time to achieve the things he wanted and yes there may still be some things that need to be done But it was NON VIOLENT.. Not only do I not want to come to your hospital I'm not so sure I want any of you to take care of me... Send your son or daughter,, See I have a son in the USMC and he would go if asked and that is his perogative but would I encourage him to go NO.. He was upset with me because he sucks on the rifle range He asked me why I didn't let him play with guns and I told him why didn't he tell me he planned on going into the USMC.. Ever wonder what jarhead means... It isn't me who unscrews his head and fills it up with all this violence... Again I will say that mankind has been fighting wars since before recorded history and war doesn't solve the problem And the cowards are the ones who follow the pack.. I suppose if someone asked you to jump off a bridge you'd do it.. Peer pressure is great How do you think Hitler got all his followers and how do you think Bin Laden got his Don't stoop to their level It takes courage to be different... Follow the pack if you will We love saying I told you so... Go ahead make my day.. May the sun shine brightly on you and may the wind be always at your back...bobbi.. A pacifist . and damn proud of it.....

[Yocanohawken]

Ok....maybe I can understand you a little better bobbi....and I will agree to simply disagree (as is my given right as an American).

I can understand that you have fear in your heart and worry for your son's unknown/possible involvement in this situation....But, your son Needs your support, he is apparently CHOSE TO BECOME A Marine for a Reason, one you may not understand....but he does.

Just as 'you' do not believe you are wrong for thinking the way you do, he apparently doesn't think he's wrong and has a mind of his own. I have to wonder if you are angry at the mob, or at the son that went against mom's belief system and wishes?

As for 'filling their brains with violence'.....on that I have to say give me a break.....have you gone to (visit and observe) basic training in the past ten years? The new troops quickly raise their hands and call 'time-out' if they feel remotely uncomfortable........it's a cakewalk compared to 'the old days', step into the present and check into the realities of today's military, you will be amazed at the discrepancies between your perceptions and the reality I assure you of that.......


-"Hawk"

[nurs4kids]

Excellent post, Helen, as usual. I'd like to make another point that our media either isn't aware of, or perhaps I'm not speaking for the majority, but I feel I am.

We keep hearing and reading the threatening "It is the duty and honor of Muslim's to die for their religion." Well guess what???
American's are more than willing to die for the freedoms we enjoy and the RIGHT to practice whatever religion we choose. I'm sick of that threat, and that's all it is...you don't see Bin Laden lining up to die, do you?

Typical American's are normally peace loving people, we aren't the monsters we keep being credited as being. BUT, BUT, BUT..we ARE willing to FIGHT, DIE and whatever else is necessary to defend what our country represents for AMERICAN'S. So, I guess in the general terms of things, this is a holy war for America too...nothing is more sacred than our right to worship when, where and how we want!!

God Bless America!

[Chellyse66]

Bobbi, your opinions are most assuredly "self serving", but none the less you are entitled, and protected. Your generalities about past wars are a good indicator of your stance. Maybe we should have just laid down our arms in the streets and cried for peace during the Revolution?? Certainly that war was not worth fighting ,right?
And what are you implying by this statement?
"Not only do I not want to come to your hospital I'm not so sure I want any of you to take care of me..."
Who is the any of you?
Aggression takes many forms, not just physical.

Carole K., "this is a war about atheism and faith?" Boy, that is an ignorant statement. " YOU ARE KIDDING RIGHT?
Bin Laden himself divided the world into two camps "The faithful and the Infidels"
(Just a little tidbit, Infidel means:
a. a person who does not accept a particular faith
b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith
d. (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.
e. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever
f. without religious faith. due to or manifesting unbelief: infidel ideas—adj.)

Webster's definition for Atheism: a.disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b. the doctrine that there is neither god nor any other deity - compare AGNOSTICISM 2. godlessness esp. in conduct
Just FYI there is a whole website dedicated to this belief

www.infidels.org

read the section on atheism....

As for excuses, I have none. I will never be too old to fight for freedom. My husband , a Naval veteran fought in Desert Storm, served in the Cuban and Somalian crisis: subsequently inquiring about serving now if accepted. My father a USMC veteran volunteered for four tours in Vietnam, flying countless rescue missions as a pilot. My sister's husband (she is there with the children) is serving as we speak in Okinawa as a Naval Chaplain, providing moral and spiritual support for all military personnel regardless of religious preference. My Cousins guarding this country in both The Air National Guard in Maryland and the Coast Guard. My family is dedicated to supporting this country militarily, and I am dedicated to them. As a Nurse if called (we have been in past wars, I would, with out a doubt be there) My son 13, is afraid but he also knows, if the time comes , he will go. Am I jumping for joy in the streets at the thought? Hell No! Am I going to change my convictions for self preservation? Hell No!
I suppose if they asked you to serve you would find an excuse. But what if they asked you to go on a peace mission ? Are you up to that? Want to go with Jesse Jackson and meet the Taleban?
How bout a peace protest, locking arms in a sit down in the streets while the bombs go off?
You'll be a Martyr........????
Seems to me that the pacifists are the very people who make excuses.
Michele

[Q.]

Originally posted by Chellyse66
Maybe we should have just laid down our arms in the streets and cried for peace during the Revolution?? Certainly that war was not worth fighting ,right?

Michele

Again, you echo my thoughts. It's the pacifists who complain and protest every war and every struggle that ensures the freedoms those same pacifists enjoy every day. It makes me sick.

They want their freedoms, but don't want to pay the price.

[Dplear]

3651bht...Do not bring up Martin Luther King in this situation. That was 30 YEARS ago in a totally different word than the world of 2001. He was aiming for different goals than what wea are aiming for now. This is the day and ago of suprise attacks and instant mass MURDER. 30 years ago when he had a dream it did not evvision the carnage that can now be brought about by a madman and his followers. King was trying to change an institution, not the world.

This is time to now change the world. We must take out those that would oppose freedom and life for others because "it against their religon". We must stop tyranny where ever it is now. To leave it unchecked will mean more death and destruction in the world. How do you stop it. BY THE END OF A SMOKING GUN BARREL!!!

Pacifism is not a viable way of living. By our very nature man is an aggressive beinig. We seek to conquer our surroundings and control our fate. This cannot be done by letting others control us. Being a pacifist is akin to being a battered spouse. You can get beat and beat and think that "gee I deserve this or I must have done something wrong, maybe if I try harder to please him he will not hit me again.".......WELL WRONG ANSWER!!! The person hitting you around has the problem. The only way to make it stop is either leave him or take him out. Annd even if you leave him it may not stop the violemce against you. he can still come after you. take him out and then there is no more worry about him ever hurting you again.

I also klnow that my beliefs do not affect my nursiing care, infact I think that they enhance my care. I would not want a passice nurse taking care of me. I would want one that is aggressive and a fighter. If I am in a situation that needed strong response by my jealthcare provider I would want to know that my nurse would FIGHT for my life. Would you?...I would for you.

As for being the first in line? I would gladly be the first in line to go after Osama Bin Laden. I would gladly put my life in the line of fire to insure that my kids have a safe future. My children are too young to go in the military, but I know that they would gladly go in when they are old enough to protect people like you and your false beliefs in a utopian society. I also have served in the military and did so by my choice. If I had been called upon to sacrafice my life for the good of my people and freedom I would have done so willingly and with no regrets. I would have then been able to meet my maker and look him in the eyes and say "yes, I did do something to help my fellow man and make his life better. I gave my life so that they could have theirs with their children."

Remeber life and death are only states of being, but freedom is and enduring propostion that is worth defending at all costs.

Dave

[nurs4kids]

Remeber life and death are only states of being, but freedom is and enduring propostion that is worth defending at all costs.

Very well stated, Dave! I LOVE that line!!

[3651bht]

Well I'll take a live pacifist nurse over a dead warmonger any day. See when I'm sick I need a nurse who has compassion and is sort of alive.. Like I have said before I don't want someone who kills taking care of me..... Still a pacifst and damn proud of it.. And to whomever decided that my USMC son would not go you can't read to well I said that he would go and that is his perogative.. Do you know what that word means... I would not encourage him to go... I would not go, I do feel sorrow for the people who died in NYC, DC and PA.. You people who want to fight I say go I am not stopping you from going.... I think most of you have an alteration in your coping mechanisms and unfortunaltely there aren't many nurses here who can help you overcome that...
May the sun shine brightly on you, in peace, and may the wind be always at your back..