[indigo girl]

Upcoming National Geographic Special based on Peter Lance's new book,
"Triple Cross"

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/40693/

[weetziebat]

Boy, I'd just love to know the truth. Not that we ever will. I hate Georgie with a passion, but just don't know if I'm leaning too far in the other direction in believing books like this. Everyone, it seems, can make their story sound believable.

All the coverups and greed for power have to go way back. I never believed JFK was killed by Oswald alone either. Were Eisenhower or Roosevelt any better? Maybe the first George (Washington)?

I get soo furious that we are being lead by, not only a man who chickened out of serving in Viet Nam, but who was never legally elected in either of the two presidential elections.

It just infuriates me that 'the land of the free and the brave' may be one of the most corrupt nations in the world, as well as a leading terrorist nation. The U.S.A. (simply in my humble opinion) is about as much a democracy as Iraq. And, yes indeedy, I am ashamed to be known as an American.

[ZASHAGALKA]

You understand that ABLE DANGER was a 'data mining' program that makes 'warrantless tapping' and the NSA's echelon program look meek by comparison. Well, maybe not echelon.

Yes, ABLE DANGER was able to identify some of the hi-jackers. But, the program was dismantled before Pres. Bush took office because of interagency squabbling. According to members of ABLE DANGER, its 2.5 terabytes of data were deleted in May and June, 2000.

The cover-up was to delete references of ABLE DANGER from the 9/11 commission because that political body didn't want to admit that 'data mining' works, regardless of the 'rights' in play. Part of the 9/11 Commission cover-up is that members of ABLE DANGER had complained that they could not act on the intel they received because Gorelick's Wall prevented them from handing off the info to the FBI. Jamie Gorelick was a sitting member of the 9/11 Commission.

The people complaining about ABLE DANGER are complaining that we COULD have had some key intel, if the program wasn't kiboshed due to interagency squablling and Gorelick's Wall.

If you favor the EFFECTIVENESS of ABLE DANGER, you are far above and beyond what Pres. Bush proposes with mere warrantless wiretapping. You are advocating for a pervasive gov't sifting through your entire electronic life.

As for me, so long as that data is used for actionable intel against threats, and not selective prosecution of citizens, I'm all for it. But, I wouldn't think that YOU, Indigo girl, would post about the cover-up of ABLE DANGER, especially since it was covered up to HIDE the effectiveness of intensive and pervasive gov't snooping in all our lives in order to sniff out threats.

IF anything, ABLE DANGER completely vindicates Pres. Bush's intelligence actions since 9/11. It is proof that 'data mining' works. The sheer volume of data mined to reveal information is such that a FISA warrant would never work, unless the warrant was for "All the Citizens of Planet Earth that have access to or are represented in any electronic medium and/or who use any telecommunication device."

For the record: I'm very Proud to be an American. We represent the best of what the world has to offer.

~faith,
Timothy.

[sanctuary]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

For the record: I'm very Proud to be an American. We represent the best of what the world has to offer.

~faith,
Timothy.

The world??? And offer what to whom? Right now our un-elected leadership is hip deep in stuff I was taught in (oh, sorry- Parochial) school was illegal. We steal elections better than any bananna republic, enrich our fat-rich-white bedfellows better than any Tamminy Hall crook, and squander American, Afgan and Iraq lives worse than any Al Quida operative would dream of. Our current leadership has done more to pollute our country than any two-bit presedente in South America could do. He has managed to disregard the very foundation of freedom he perports to protect.
"Kill for Peace"? "Violate the Bill of Rights to protect it"? Oh, please.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by sanctuary

The world???

Yes, the very whole wide world.

The world looks to America for leadership. They might not like HOW we do things, but they sure don't object that it is our money, our lives, and our resources at stake - not theirs.

We are the envy of the world. Do you think OBL hates America because we are 'mucking around' in the Middle East? Please. He had no objections to such 'mucking' when it was to provide HIM resources to fight the Russians in Afganistan.

NO. OBL hates us because of our huge success. Our success stands in stark contrast to the failures of radical Wahabbism. Or more to the point, we are the allies of his perceived enemy: the Saudi gov't.

Tinpot despots hold currency in being mice that roared. It sells good at home. Point in fact: hezbollah was decimated during the recent standoff with Israel: political verdict - hezbollah won. OK. If the talking heads say so.

You guys have confused partisan politics with the essential goodness of our Nation. That goodness has survived both Democrat AND Republican Administrations, and will so again.

This is a wonderful nation, full of wonderful people. Both individually and collectively, we represent the very best the World has to offer. Consider our 'Greatest Generation'. What a wonderful legacy they have passed down to us.
Personally, I'm awed and honored.

The world may cringe slightly over the concept of PAX AMERICANA. But, they DO not turn away from all the advances and aid that comes along with it. The world is a better place because of American ventures abroad.

Ask Europe. Ask Japan. Ask the newly freed Iron Curtain Nations. Ask Iraq - where public opinion polls consistently show that its newly freed citizens might not approve of where things ARE, but have great hope for the future.

We have been and continue to be a beacon of hope for the oppressed around the world. That's an indisputable fact, unswayable by political rhetoric.

Do we make mistakes? Of course we do. We elected Bill Clinton after all (that was a JOKE.)

But, the proof of our ultimate success is this: from Iran, to Asia, to Europe, the whole world clamors to adopt AMERICAN culture. It is our number one export. Imagine that. The peoples of the world investing their free time in imitating us. . . Would you like fashionable holes in your Levis while watching that Tom Cruise movie?

~faith,
Timothy.

[sanctuary]

To Your Greater Antics with Semantics.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by sanctuary

To Your Greater Antics with Semantics.

Nothing I said was play on words. It's a viewpoint, and an accurately articulated one.

I'm proud to be a citizen of the Greatest Nation in the history of the World. What a great time to be alive!

And what a great place to be alive. We are all very rich. And I'm not talking about money.

~faith,
Timothy.

[indigo girl]

[quote=ZASHAGALKA]Yes, the very whole wide world.
The world looks to America for leadership. They might not like HOW we do things, but they sure don't object that it is our money, our lives, and our resources at stake - not theirs.[/ZASHAGALKA]

Leadership? No, not by a longshot. And it is their lives, and their children's lives that are at stake as well as their resources, the real reason for all of this carnage.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

We are the envy of the world. Do you think OBL hates America because we are 'mucking around' in the Middle East? Please. He had no objections to such 'mucking' when it was to provide HIM resources to fight the Russians in Afganistan.
NO. OBL hates us because of our huge success. Our success stands in stark contrast to the failures of radical Wahabbism. Or more to the point, we are the allies of his perceived enemy: the Saudi gov't.

Well, I'm glad we agree as to who provided him the resources to fight the Russians. We should all keep that fact in mind.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

Tinpot despots hold currency in being mice that roared. It sells good at home. Point in fact: hezbollah was decimated during the recent standoff with Israel: political verdict - hezbollah won. OK. If the talking heads say so.

Who lost? The US helped make war on an ally, a fact not lost on the other allies of that region. Who was decimated? The innocent people who could not get out of the way, their economy, their environment, their gene pool.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

You guys have confused partisan politics with the essential goodness of our Nation. That goodness has survived both Democrat AND Republican Administrations, and will so again.

We, "guys" are not confusing "partisan politics" with the goodness of our Nation. We are disgusted because Americans are being identified with policies that have us becoming the evil "we" supposedly are fighting.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

This is a wonderful nation, full of wonderful people. Both individually and collectively, we represent the very best the World has to offer. Consider our 'Greatest Generation'. What a wonderful legacy they have passed down to us.
Personally, I'm awed and honored.

No argument there.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

The world may cringe slightly over the concept of PAX AMERICANA.

Hold it right there, "cringe slightly"? The world is saying this war is illegal.
Some would like to try Bush as a war criminal.

http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/138319/1/

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

But, they DO not turn away from all the advances and aid that comes along with it. The world is a better place because of American ventures abroad.

American ventures abroad, would that include the use of illegal weapons such as the ones Israel used against the people of Lebanon? Would that include the contracts given to Halliburton etc?

http://nucnews.net/nucnews/2006nn/0607nn/060723nn.txt

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nuev...banon_Gaza.htm



http://www.socialwatch.org/en/noticias/noticia_129.htm
Scroll down to look at the description of the "death ray". There are two sections on these weapons in this link.
There is a very real concern that Israel was given this technology by the US and used it in Lebanon.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

Ask Europe. Ask Japan. Ask the newly freed Iron Curtain Nations. Ask Iraq - where public opinion polls consistently show that its newly freed citizens might not approve of where things ARE, but have great hope for the future.

I think "newly freed" is really a stretch when talking about Iraq. Free to do what? The place is a continuous battlefield where the citizens are not safe ESPECIALLY from some of the Americans.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

We have been and continue to be a beacon of hope for the oppressed around the world. That's an indisputable fact, unswayable by political rhetoric.

Sadly, that would have to be in the past tense for the many innocent civilians who lives have been lost in the present conflicts.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

Do we make mistakes? Of course we do. We elected Bill Clinton after all (that was a JOKE.)

No one will argue this either.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

But, the proof of our ultimate success is this: from Iran, to Asia, to Europe, the whole world clamors to adopt AMERICAN culture. It is our number one export. Imagine that. The peoples of the world investing their free time in imitating us. . . Would you like fashionable holes in your Levis while watching that Tom Cruise movie?

They want the number one export, Tim. They don't want the number 2, which includes but is not limited to - the weapons, the soldiers, the replacing of regimes, the rapes, the torture of prisoners...

[Roy Fokker]

Everyone: lets debate the issue - not each other.
Consider this a friendly reminder.

Thanks.

[indigo girl]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

You understand that ABLE DANGER was a 'data mining' program that makes 'warrantless tapping' and the NSA's echelon program look meek by comparison. Well, maybe not echelon
Yes, ABLE DANGER was able to identify some of the hi-jackers. But, the program was dismantled before Pres. Bush took office because of interagency squabbling. According to members of ABLE DANGER, its 2.5 terabytes of data were deleted in May and June, 2000.

Was it truly dismantled?

Originally Posted by http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/40693/

And what about reports that the Able Danger program was reconstituted after the data purge by a classified Raytheon "skunk works" program in Garland, Texas? Or that the entire data-mining effort was then taken "black," hidden deep inside the intelligence bureaucracy and expanded into what later morphed into Total Information Awareness, NSA warrantless surveillance, and in fact the government's ongoing illegal and unconstitutional spying on huge quantities of domestic telephone calls and emails? Conspiracy ... or something more?

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

The cover-up was to delete references of ABLE DANGER from the 9/11 commission because that political body didn't want to admit that 'data mining' works, regardless of the 'rights' in play. Part of the 9/11 Commission cover-up is that members of ABLE DANGER had complained that they could not act on the intel they received because Gorelick's Wall prevented them from handing off the info to the FBI. Jamie Gorelick was a sitting member of the 9/11 Commission.

Nay, nay, the cover up was to protect the Pentagon's butt and that is why I posted it:

Originally Posted by http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/40693/

Lance contends that when Pentagon officials realized how embarrassing it would be if it were revealed that bin Laden's spy had stolen top-secret intelligence (including the positions of all Green Beret and SEAL units worldwide), they decided to bury the entire Able Danger program

Are we to blame Gorelick for all of this? I think not:

Originally Posted by http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/40693/

why was veteran intelligence analyst-operative Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer's career derailed and reputation besmirched after he tried to alert an unwilling 9/11 Commission to Able Danger's findings? What has happened to the Department of Defense's own inspector general's investigation into the scapegoating of Shaffer -- originally slated to be completed and made public in May? Whatever happened to Arlen Specter's Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Able Danger, originally scheduled for last September and then "postponed for the Jewish holidays?" And why were the entire 2.5 terabytes of Able Danger data destroyed, along with a pre-9/11 link chart that identified four eventual hijackers and even had a photograph of Mohammed Atta?

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

The people complaining about ABLE DANGER are complaining that we COULD have had some key intel, if the program wasn't kiboshed due to interagency squablling and Gorelick's Wall.
If you favor the EFFECTIVENESS of ABLE DANGER, you are far above and beyond what Pres. Bush proposes with mere warrantless wiretapping. You are advocating for a pervasive gov't sifting through your entire electronic life

Can't speak for the complainers. And, for the record, of course, few people are going to agree to pervasive gov't sifting. But, what does it matter what we think anyway?
We just live on this planet.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

As for me, so long as that data is used for actionable intel against threats, and not selective prosecution of citizens, I'm all for it. But, I wouldn't think that YOU, Indigo girl, would post about the cover-up of ABLE DANGER, especially since it was covered up to HIDE the effectiveness of intensive and pervasive gov't snooping in all our lives in order to sniff out threats.

That is because we don't agree about why it was covered up.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

.
IF anything, ABLE DANGER completely vindicates Pres. Bush's intelligence actions since 9/11. It is proof that 'data mining' works. The sheer volume of data mined to reveal information is such that a FISA warrant would never work, unless the warrant was for "All the Citizens of Planet Earth that have access to or are represented in any electronic medium and/or who use any telecommunication device."

I would not draw that inference from it. Especially about Bush's intelligence actions (sorry, that was a joke). Does anyone want to live in world where everything is monitored? With Echelon, we are already there. And, that predates Bush.

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

For the record: I'm very Proud to be an American. We represent the best of what the world has to offer.

Glad to hear it. America can represent the best. Unfortunately, current policies have made America many enemies.