[mercyteapot]

I'm sorry. I hope I didn't come off as doubting what was being said. I'm not an ER nurse, so I'd have no idea what goes on. I guess it is just difficult for me to fathom that anyone would elect incarceration, when in reality, there are other options. Not particularly attractive options in many cases, but to my way of thinking, still better than jail... Then again, my way of thinking isn't criminal in the first place. I guess that's the difference.

[Blackcat99]

I use to work at a jail in West Virginia. At the jail, the rule was that any brand new inmates who came in complaining of chest pain were to be sent first to the ER for evaluation. The new inmates-usually the drunks found out about this rule and used it to their advantage. The police didn't want to spend all Saturday night waiting with an inmate at the ER. My friend whose husband was a cop told me that some police officers would release them immediately so they wouldn't have to spend their whole shift waiting in the ER with the inmate.

[RN.38SPCL]

"criminal Mind" They Do Think Completely Different Than You And I. It Is Very Beneficial To An Inmate To Pretend Mental Illness. If You Keep Up The Crazy Behavior Long Enough To Get On Everyone's Nerves, You Qualify Through Psych To Be Heavily Medicated. Then You Can Breeze Your Way Through Jail Or Better Yet, Get Out Of Jail. I've Seen What You Would Think Was The Craziest Person Calm Right Down Immediatley After Swallowing A Pill And Be All Apologetic For Their Behavior. It Takes Weeks To Get True Results From Psych Meds, But The Inmate Fails To Recognize That. The Fakers Always Claim They Hear Voices And Will List The Exact Drug And Doses They Need. They Will Demand To Be Medicated Or Else. The Real Psych Patient Does Not Want You To Know They Hear Voices, They Don't Want You To Think They're Nuts, And They Always Refuse Meds.

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

Certain things are considered "inalienable" (meaning no matter what kind of louse you are, you won't lose these) rights.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Clearly some things are adjustable--since liberty and the pursuit of happiness are bounded by the impact on others, most clearly seen in the incarcerated population.

But life would include food, water, shelter and medical care in this culture.

That's why.

Because whether you like them or not, they have a right to it.

It is not about deserving, or earning, that's different.

[BBFRN]

Also, they are state property while they're in prison. This means that they are also state responsibility.

[RN1989]

Originally Posted by RN.38SPCL

"criminal Mind" They Do Think Completely Different Than You And I. It Is Very Beneficial To An Inmate To Pretend Mental Illness. If You Keep Up The Crazy Behavior Long Enough To Get On Everyone's Nerves, You Qualify Through Psych To Be Heavily Medicated. Then You Can Breeze Your Way Through Jail Or Better Yet, Get Out Of Jail. I've Seen What You Would Think Was The Craziest Person Calm Right Down Immediatley After Swallowing A Pill And Be All Apologetic For Their Behavior. It Takes Weeks To Get True Results From Psych Meds, But The Inmate Fails To Recognize That. The Fakers Always Claim They Hear Voices And Will List The Exact Drug And Doses They Need. They Will Demand To Be Medicated Or Else. The Real Psych Patient Does Not Want You To Know They Hear Voices, They Don't Want You To Think They're Nuts, And They Always Refuse Meds.

Sorry but the scenarios you tell aren't just all about inmates. They describe probably half the patients I have ever cared for. People with money and never once committed a crime do this. It's a stupid human trick.

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

I agree with RN1989, although I didn't see it in "half" my clients, I did see it enough to be wary. The individuals who engaged in that silliness typically were a combo of personality disorder and relatively low IQ, which, if you think about it, is a large portion of the inmate population.

We see people all the time who are faking symptoms, for whatever reason. That is not a reason to withhold medical treatment any more than an inability to pay is a reason.

In fact, I know of no reason to withhold treatment from anyone, legally or morally, particularly if they are upright, walking and talking.

And no, I am not suggesting that people who are not should ever be denied on that basis either.

To suggest that medical care should be denied to people who are incarcerated felons or for any other reason which suggests something other than medical appropriateness is the reason. It asks whether they are "good enough" to receive care. Excuse me? This appears to be punitive and wholly inconsistent with the practice of healthcare.

I would further suggest (and this always gets me such great emails) that if you feel that way, you need to get out of there and work with some other population that you don't feel this way about. If there is none, you need to do something other than nursing. Period. Trust me, you will be happier doing something you don't feel so resentful about.

There was a time when nurses and our profession just didn't know any better. In the 1960's I can remember my aunt (then an LPN) writing about a patient who was a black woman who complained all the time. (Our family is white.) My aunt wrote that she "sure showed her who was boss" by making sure there was a burr on the needle the next time the woman needed an injection. I asked my mother, an RN, whether that wasn't wrong. My mother didn't respond, just ignored me. That sort of attitude and behavior (in both of them) was common--and their reasons just as reasonable as those today which suggest that available care should be denied to anyone who needs it.

Who are we to judge? I mean really?

I am very glad I am a nurse today. If we behave as our profession dictates, we are about being nonjudmental, noncritical, about using the best we have for each patient, to give the best care we can give, to make the most difference in the quality of their lives. We use objective data upon which to make decisions to benefit the patient. We take the patient's word about whether they are in pain. We now know that a sleeping patient is not a patient without pain, necessarily. We are smarter now. We are more moral now.

If you cannot use this kind of thinking in the practice of your art, whether it be with felons or children or persons of another race, you need to rethink the wisdom of being in this profession.

Period.

[RN.38SPCL]

Chris At Lucas, I Agree With 1989 And You. But What Does "objective Mean To You? To Me It Includes But Is Not Limited To:
-existing As An Object Or Fact, Independent Of The Mind; Real, - Concerned With The realities Of The Thing Dealt With, Rather Than The Thoughts Of The Artist, Writer,
From Websters New World Dictionary.

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

Originally Posted by RN.38SPCL

Chris At Lucas, I Agree With 1989 And You. But What Does "objective Mean To You? To Me It Includes But Is Not Limited To:
-existing As An Object Or Fact, Independent Of The Mind; Real, - Concerned With The realities Of The Thing Dealt With, Rather Than The Thoughts Of The Artist, Writer,
From Websters New World Dictionary.

I don't see this as a contradiction or adding anything new. I guess I would be of the opinion that we are no longer on topic: discussing whether imprisoned individuals should receive proper medical care at the expense of the state.....

If I might make one request, RN.38SPCL, however: it is very difficult to read all caps and initial caps. If you wouldn't mind, could you post using the usual method (e.g., not making the initial of every word a capital)?

I'm sure what you have to say is important but it is so hard to read!

Thanks....

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

Originally Posted by mercyteapot

I'm sorry. I hope I didn't come off as doubting what was being said. I'm not an ER nurse, so I'd have no idea what goes on. I guess it is just difficult for me to fathom that anyone would elect incarceration, when in reality, there are other options. Not particularly attractive options in many cases, but to my way of thinking, still better than jail... Then again, my way of thinking isn't criminal in the first place. I guess that's the difference.

Mercy, I'm with you. I'll take it further, even.

We do not know any of these anecdotes to be fact. How often have we been given information about patients we actually see and care for, and it turns out to be someone's conjecture, exaggerated by a few more people, and elaborated upon by more? Remember the game called "gossip" or "rumor?" Same deal.

We also do not know what people's circumstances are. People do desperate things in desperate times. I think we are arrogant when we assume we know it all, understand it all and could do better than they do.

We are being judgmental when we do that. We aren't supposed to be..... It is one thing to make assumptions in an effort to help. Totally another thing when we make assumptions in the process of judging and criticizing.