[NurseHardee]

Well, the Dude has given us the conventional US wisdom once again. And things are just Jim Dandy compared to the horrors that hide in the shadows he says.

[dudenurse]

Yup!!

[dudenurse]

Come on don't just say "oh no there goes the conventional wisdom again." Does this not make sense. health care costs money, no matter how you set it up.

If I am not mistaken most systems outside the US have long wait periods to test if you have just had an MI. Then another wait list to have the commonplace operation to fix it. This is why many Canadians who can afford it receive MRIs in Detroit or Seattle.

Does someone out there know of an example. Am I wrong here?

[pickledpepperRN]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other. "
John Adams (1735 - 1826)

How is denying healthcare to children, the poor, elderly, or disabled moral or religious?

[gwenith]

Originally posted by dudenurse
Come on don't just say "oh no there goes the conventional wisdom again." Does this not make sense. health care costs money, no matter how you set it up.

If I am not mistaken most systems outside the US have long wait periods to test if you have just had an MI. Then another wait list to have the commonplace operation to fix it. This is why many Canadians who can afford it receive MRIs in Detroit or Seattle.

Does someone out there know of an example. Am I wrong here?

You are very wrong here - we do NOT have long wait times to "test if you just had an MI". Yes there are wait times but these are accelerated as the patient condition dictates. You might have to wait sometimes up to 10 weeks for a FREE angio IF and only IF you are stable and have NO further chest pain - just one further episode of chest pain and BOOOM!!! you get your angio then and there!!!!!!

Please understand it is not now and never has been about denial of service but there is and always has been a priority allocation of that service. You Triage patients in ED - well we simply do it on a larger scale is all.

However if you have private health insurance there is no wait.

[pickledpepperRN]

[/url] <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UGT64APEP1.DTL>>

What premiums pay for

<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...sured_solutions> <http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...sured_solutions <http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ured_solutions>>

U.S. Urged on Universal Health Insurance

http://www.sjs-vitamins-shop.com/li...ancy_stats.html <http://www.sjs-vitamins-shop.com/lif...ncy_stats.html>
World Health Organization Reports Life Expectancy By Country
One of the biggest surprises with DALE was the relatively low position of the United States, which was 24 on the list.

This link describes many factors that influence life expectancy
http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/eng...es/social/life/ <http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/engl...s/social/life/>

The 11 countries where people on average live one or more years longer than the USA have two things in common:
1. High per capita average income.
&
2. Universal Healthcare.

http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/...nk/espvie2.html <http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/i...k/espvie2.html>

<http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091055/html/index.html>

Comment: The Committee has provided a great service by demonstrating, in previous reports, the severe deficiencies in our system related to uninsurance, and now by providing an unqualified recommendation for universal coverage.


<http://www.healthcareforall.org/hcop_study.html>
The State of California's recent health care study, the Health Care Options Project (HCOP), conducted by the California Health and Human Services Agency (CHHS), demonstrated that a publicly funded and administered universal health insurance program (also knows as single payer) will save billions of health care dollars and provide the necessary funding for universal health care.


<http://www.revolutionmag.com/newrev17/ihspanswer.html>

"They" are U.S. consumers and, more and more, they are becoming disenchanted, distrustful and disgusted by the state of health care in the wealthiest nation in the world. "
<http://cna.igc.org/calnurseoctnov03/thetime.html>
Now is the time ... 'The nurses' proposal for Universal Healthcare & a single standard of care'



<http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/...nk/espvie2.html> <http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/...nk/espvie2.html <http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/i...k/espvie2.html>>

LIST OF THE HEALTHIEST COUNTRIES

<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...BUGT64APEP1.DTL> <<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...BUGT64APEP1.DTL>>

What premiums pay for
David Lazarus
Friday, January 16, 2004
©2004 San Francisco Chronicle

The United States squanders more money every year on health care bureaucracy than it would cost to provide medical coverage for the 43 million Americans now lacking insurance.
gwenith,'Some one asked me the other day if health care was important to Australians and my answer was YES!!!!
Elections are won and lost here on health care issues. We have a free health care service - not ideal - not perfect but about 100,1000 kilometers ahead of where the USA is. '
check this out

<http://www.abc.net.au/health/healthmap/default.htm>

So, when it comes to universal health care all I can say is "don't knock it till you trY it!"
-----------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3459703.stm

[WyomingRN]

Like it or not, you can have socialism - or you can have liberty - but you can't have both. As far as I am concerned, you either support and defend the Constitution (an American) - or you don't (anti-American). It is that simple.

Moreover, when talking about this issue, it seems that other factors need to be discussed such as the trade agreements like NAFTA. At one time, companies were proud to say they were an American company; but not anymore. "To promote the general welfare" means the government should take the necessary steps to ensure that now only American jobs are safe, but that they pay adequately to support the necessities of life such as medical costs.

As an American, I am totally against socialism - period. I am however for the Constitution and the government doing its job (obligations) as is mandated. By allowing high paying jobs to go to other countries, lax immigration laws and poor trade policies, the government is doing everything it can to for American into socialism. Wake up people. See how it all ties together. Look at the bigger picture.

[kitkat24]

Originally posted by WyomingRN
Like it or not, you can have socialism - or you can have liberty - but you can't have both. As far as I am concerned, you either support and defend the Constitution (an American) - or you don't (anti-American). It is that simple.

Moreover, when talking about this issue, it seems that other factors need to be discussed such as the trade agreements like NAFTA. At one time, companies were proud to say they were an American company; but not anymore. "To promote the general welfare" means the government should take the necessary steps to ensure that now only American jobs are safe, but that they pay adequately to support the necessities of life such as medical costs.

As an American, I am totally against socialism - period. I am however for the Constitution and the government doing its job (obligations) as is mandated. By allowing high paying jobs to go to other countries, lax immigration laws and poor trade policies, the government is doing everything it can to for American into socialism. Wake up people. See how it all ties together. Look at the bigger picture.

Amen, and Amen !

[kitkat24]

My point with the post from your Senate (?), is that these are problems currently identified in your system in Australia. You guys haven't worked out all the problems. How long have you had socialized medicine? Why trade our problems, which do not seem to be as bad, for socialized medicine problems?

The point is to have your tonsils removed is a problem in Australia. It is not here in the US. They would not treat you with antibiotics for a year (so you don't die of sepsis) while you wait on a list because your tonsils are not a priority.

I know that the post was because your country is trying to fix their PROBLEMS. It was actually an exerpt from a more liberal state of mind (Liberal in the US meaning left wing and not conservative), yet it still IDENTIFIES problems in your system.

The next step is they say, "MORE MONEY WILL FIX IT". So, more tax dollars get put into the system and it never does get fixed. More money never fixes the problem, yet liberals sream for more more more and more money.

kitkat

[kitkat24]

Australia’s Public Health Care System
The following ‘typical’ patient case descriptions

By your Senates OWN admission this is a TYPICAL patient case description:

Joan’s throat
Joan, a nineteen year old young adult is suffering from a sore throat and after a number of days of discomfort and aspirins discover she cannot swallow and goes to the Emergency department of a public hospital for treatment. She is admitted for two days and treated with antibiotics for swollen tonsils and suspected Quinsy as a public patient at no resulting cost to her. Before being released she is seen by the hospital specialist who warns that if her tonsils again become swollen or infected again she will need to have them removed.
Several weeks later while visiting another city, Joan’s tonsils again become swollen and so visits a medical clinic where the general practitioner (GP) prescribes a course of antibiotics to control the infection until she can visit her own local GP. The GP refers Joan to an Ear Nose and Throat (ENT) specialist who prescribes another course of antibiotics. After the course of antibiotics her tonsils become inflamed again causing the specialist to recommend surgical removal of the tonsils while classifying the patient as Non-Urgent (category 3).
Wait times for category 3 public patient awaiting tonsil removal in a public hospital was estimated between 12 and 24 months. Alternatively, Joan has the option of paying around $2000 to have the specialist remove the tonsils in a private hospital within the next four weeks.
Joan began to evaluate her options of risking any side effects of drugs and antibiotics treatment for over a year, or borrowing money for an early operation knowing the private hospital cost and extra billing and balance of the Medicare benefits amounted to an patient out-of-pocket expense (the gap) would amount to approximately $1000.



So, Australia separates those who can pay privately and those who cannot and get STUCK waiting. This really is a good respresentation of my point. This does not happen here. We don't have lists to wait that determine whether or not your condition is a priority.....