[llg]

Originally Posted by elkpark

Lots of things make business sense, but aren't necessarily a good idea for other reasons.

My father, for example, is a retired physician who is "wise, experienced, eager to help students, and very committed." He would be very interested in participating in a program like that. However, he also believes that nurses, like small children, should be "seen and not heard" -- that they don't need to know or think about anything on their own because their job is to follow the physician's orders without question. His attitude about this is fairly subtle -- he doesn't announce this to you when he walks into the room; it takes time and experience to realize that that's his view and it's not going to change. Is that someone we want teaching nursing students about interdisciplinary communication and working with other professionals? I know that's just one example, but I grew up around many physicians who are now "retired physicians" and that's a very common attitude in that demographic group. Is that an attitude we want conveyed in the nursing school classroom to impressionable students?

My late father was also a physician. However, his attitude seems to have been just the opposite of yours. He was totally supportive of advanced nurse practice roles and advanced education for nurses. In fact, he is the one who encouraged me towards nursing and away from a medical career. While my grandmothers (and high school teachers) were trying to talk me out of nursing and into med school, he (and his friends) were saying things like "Oh no, med school is not worth it. You would have a much higher quality of life as one of those advanced nurses. They have all kinds of new roles for nurses now that sound like great careers. Get your MSN and maybe even a PhD in nursing and you will all kinds of good options to choose from. We need to get more of those kinds of nursing here in our town. etc. etc. etc."

As a small town physician, Dad depended on the RN's at the hospital to assess the patients and meet their needs while he was 5 miles away in his office. He depended on them and respected them. While he was in the hospital frequently in his later years, he loved having nursing students involved in his care. He would teach them about his heart disease and diabetes and tell them stories about his patients. He would have been great in a program like the one described in the article.

I feel strongly about having nurses keep control of nursing education. But one of the hallmarks of a strong and secure discipline is its ability to work with other disciplines without losing its identity. The ability to work well in interdisciplinary groups is a sign of a healthy and strong discipline.

Oh ... and I certainly don't mean to insult your father elkpark or any of his colleagues. But I felt a need to point out that is as much diversity among retired physicians as there is among nurses. Neither group is homogeneous.

[elkpark]

Originally Posted by llg

My late father was also a physician. However, his attitude seems to have been just the opposite of yours. He was totally supportive of advanced nurse practice roles and advanced education for nurses. In fact, he is the one who encouraged me towards nursing and away from a medical career. While my grandmothers (and high school teachers) were trying to talk me out of nursing and into med school, he (and his friends) were saying things like "Oh no, med school is not worth it. You would have a much higher quality of life as one of those advanced nurses. They have all kinds of new roles for nurses now that sound like great careers. Get your MSN and maybe even a PhD in nursing and you will all kinds of good options to choose from. We need to get more of those kinds of nursing here in our town. etc. etc. etc."

As a small town physician, Dad depended on the RN's at the hospital to assess the patients and meet their needs while he was 5 miles away in his office. He depended on them and respected them. While he was in the hospital frequently in his later years, he loved having nursing students involved in his care. He would teach them about his heart disease and diabetes and tell them stories about his patients. He would have been great in a program like the one described in the article.

I feel strongly about having nurses keep control of nursing education. But one of the hallmarks of a strong and secure discipline is its ability to work with other disciplines without losing its identity. The ability to work well in interdisciplinary groups is a sign of a healthy and strong discipline.

Oh ... and I certainly don't mean to insult your father elkpark or any of his colleagues. But I felt a need to point out that is as much diversity among retired physicians as there is among nurses. Neither group is homogeneous.

(No offense taken! )

My dad pooh-poohed at every opportunity the idea of advanced education (anything other than hospital-based diploma schools) for nurses until it was suddenly his little girl applying to nursing graduate programs, when he suddenly decided graduate education in nursing was the greatest thing since sliced bread! Only in my case, though, he still sees me as a special exception ...

I agree with you completely about the value of interdisciplinary collaboration (psych is my field, and we are all about working in interdisciplinary teams!) I also agree with you that there's plenty of diversity within the physician community -- which is why we can't just assume that all physicians would have attitudes we want transmitted to students. I would also make the case that working with other disciplines is very different from being educated by other disciplines ...

[Danish]

Originally Posted by traumaRUs

What about paying MSN and doctorate educated nurses a competitive wage. I would love to teach but can't take the pay cut.

Amen to that!
First of all, most nurses go into the field because they love pt care. Secondly, why would I want to work hard and get a Master's level education for the pay most of these schools are willing to dole out? We all know the difference in pay between an MSN-educator and an ARNP or CRNA. Paying nurse educators what they are worth would be a start!!

[herring_RN]

I think the academic "publish or perish" is not good for nursing.
Too many fine professors publish silly "studies".
Why must this be done?

[llg]

Originally Posted by herring_RN

I think the academic "publish or perish" is not good for nursing.
Too many fine professors publish silly "studies".
Why must this be done?

Someone needs to do nursing research -- and hospitals rarely invest the resources necessary to get it done. Nursing research is deparately needed to expand and advance the nursing knowledge base -- the knowledge base upon which we should all be basing our practice. The people in academia do this type of work because they are the ones with the skills and the interest in doing that type of work.

If you are not happy with the quality of the nursing research being done, then get involved in the process and do quality work. The real question isn't "Why do academically minded people do academic work?" The real question is, "Why does the nursing profession set its standards so low?"

We need more research and sometimes, better quality research. That will only come as more people get involved.