Male nurses and SANE

jlamb · Aug 23, 2005

I am just starting as a student nurse. However, I feel "pulled" towards forensic nursing. I wonder if anyone would care to give an honest opinion of this as a future career for a male nurse.
Possible (way off in the future) career ideas I have considered include SANE, working with male victims, adult and pediatric, as well as same-sex domestic violence. Other avenues of interest are basic forensic nursing type; pathology work or pursuing a second degree in Criminal Science.
I wonder though, about the reaction within the nursing community regarding a male nurse being a SANE.
I've discussed the idea of forensic nursing with my advisor and she agreed that I should pursue it. Just wanting other opinions...
Please feel free to e-mail me if you feel unable to express here on the boards. Just be sure to include nursing.com in the subject line.

I am a forensic nurse. Yes, you should pursue it. SANE nursing is only part of forensics. Check out the medicolegal Death Investgator Course through St. Louis University. It is excellent. I attended there. As far as SANE nursing, I think you could do male rape victims who are often from jail or are children, and certainly males who are the victim of domestic violence. You would probably not be allowed to perform the kit on a female. Speaking as both a nurse AND a rape victim who was raped by a stranger 1 year ago, I would not want a male RN to do the rape kit. I have nothing against male nurses, my husband is one, but at that time I was very fragile emotionally, I could not identify my rapist who has not been caught, and having another male besides by husband look at me was beyond what I could do at that time.

You would probably ride 3rd rider with the police to some crime scenes until you learn the ropes about not contaminating crime scenes. They feel about their scene the way we do about sterile fields!

Best of luck, have fun. It is a tough job to comfort a victim or a survivor, and to look a man's inhumanity to man that should not happen.

I think nurses would welcome male SANE nurses and so would doctors. Doctors have a really tough time knowing what to say to a rape victim. You would learn that in training. They did not.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Aug 23, 2005

Male nurse here, done ER, currently critical care.

I'm all for pushing envelopes, but a male SANE nurse isn't the right envelope to push.

Go through the training if you want to learn the forensics of it, but don't expect to actually function in that capacity.

If I were running an ER, NO WAY would I let a man do the SANE work.

First off, unless all your docs are female, another man in the room (you), means the need for a woman - tying up another staff member.

More important, there are just sometimes when being a man is incompatible with some aspects of nursing - and asserting your 'rights' on a woman who's real rights where just brutally violated - that's just cruel and certainly not empathetic.

Men and Women, nurses or not, are not interchangeable. There are just some things that women can't do. And some things men can't. (I don't expect to qualify as a 'hooter's girl', and, until society seriously changes, I don't expect to see a female pro football tackle.)

You cannot be the psychological help this woman needs when she needs help because of 'men'. It's easy to SAY 'it's a specific man, not me', but when somebody are so traumatized, the finer points of abstract thought don't hold sway. Such trauma pushes you into your more 'instinctual' zones. And in that situation, yet another man (perp, then doc, THEN you) examining a girl's violated 'zones' is another violation.

And that's not what we're about.

I've seen an assertive female voice bring a girl back from the edge of insanity. And as much as I credit the training and compassion of that nurse, I cannot discount the female nature of that voice. . .

~faith,

Timothy.

jlamb · Aug 23, 2005

Male nurse here, done ER, currently critical care.
I'm all for pushing envelopes, but a male SANE nurse isn't the right envelope to push.
Go through the training if you want to learn the forensics of it, but don't expect to actually function in that capacity.
If I were running an ER, NO WAY would I let a man do the SANE work.
First off, unless all your docs are female, another man in the room (you), means the need for a woman - tying up another staff member.
More important, there are just sometimes when being a man is incompatible with some aspects of nursing - and asserting your 'rights' on a woman who's real rights where just brutally violated - that's just cruel and certainly not empathetic.
Men and Women, nurses or not, are not interchangeable. There are just some things that women can't do. And some things men can't. (I don't expect to qualify as a 'hooter's girl', and, until society seriously changes, I don't expect to see a female pro football tackle.)
You cannot be the psychological help this woman needs when she needs help because of 'men'. It's easy to SAY 'it's a specific man, not me', but when somebody are so traumatized, the finer points of abstract thought don't hold sway. Such trauma pushes you into your more 'instinctual' zones. And in that situation, yet another man (perp, then doc, THEN you) examining a girl's violated 'zones' is another violation.
And that's not what we're about.
I've seen an assertive female voice bring a girl back from the edge of insanity. And as much as I credit the training and compassion of that nurse, I cannot discount the female nature of that voice. . .
~faith,
Timothy.

Timothy, not all rape victims are female. I am respectful and grateful for what you said about female rape victims-I am one myself. However, there are male victims of rape. I am a forensics nurse and have worked ER and ICU as well as in an attorney's office and as an independent consultant. I have seen them come from jail, from frat parties, and worst of all, cases of child abuse that are male, some in their teens. In these cases, and it would be case by case, a male SANE nurse would be appropriate. What is said during a SANE exam is able to be used in court, and during this time, the victim may recall important details. The male victim may be more comfortable talking to another male, especially when detailing the violence, the anatomic structures, etc.

I have friend who is a psychologist now and has spent his life in educating teens and those adults who work with them about teen issues, especially in the sexuality area. He was an incest victim of both parents and one grandparent from his earliest memories until he was 13. He said he advise people who work with the male rape victim that the victim be asked if he prefers a male or female examiner. The SANE exam and forensics go way beyond the ER, and the goal is to gather ALL information we can to convict the perpetrator. Please don't automatically rule out a male SANE nurse. They are needed.

Frosty · Aug 23, 2005

Thanks a lot guys! This is exactly the type of feedback I hoped for. As a victim of rape myself, I can understand the validity of the argument against having a male SANE working with the female victims.

However, I need to point out there are instances where the female feels otherwise. In one case I know of, the female asked for a male caregiver to provide followup, following the treatment received by the female staff. Very sad all things considered, but makes us remember that we are unique as individuals.

jlamb - I will check on the course at St. Louis University. Also, my local Community College has developed its curriculum for Criminal Justice to include crime scene investigation. Wondering if I should pursue a second degree in CJ, or just get background training?

I know the SANE is just a stepping board, but one that I needed to discuss with others. There are a lot of avenues in Forensics. Just taking my time ang getting the information I need ahead of time, rather than looking back and wishing I had done my research earlier!

Please feel free to discuss this further. The issue of SANE and male victims is relatively new. MAny people have been slow to recognize the need of men after trauma. I have done many years of research and peer counseling, and still not ready to "just jump in." Would love to do the work and help the victims, as I know the long journey they are on...

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Aug 23, 2005

Timothy, not all rape victims are female.

While I agree with that statement, the majority of rape victims are.

And the bias and fear that a woman would fear from having a male SANE nurse would not extend to a male patient having a female nurse, for a variety of reasons, including societal standards (most people today still expect to see a female nurse, etc).

And in any case, a male patient that was just raped by another male would possibly have the same fear state of other males as a female victim of a male.

And I would suggest that males attacked by females are too rare and/or too rarely reported to try to make a career out of that niche.

~faith,

Timothy.

jlamb · Aug 24, 2005

While I agree with that statement, the majority of rape victims are.
And the bias and fear that a woman would fear from having a male SANE nurse would not extend to a male patient having a female nurse, for a variety of reasons, including societal standards (most people today still expect to see a female nurse, etc).
And in any case, a male patient that was just raped by another male would possibly have the same fear state of other males as a female victim of a male.
And I would suggest that males attacked by females are too rare and/or too rarely reported to try to make a career out of that niche.
~faith,
Timothy.

I will continue to encourage male nurses to go into SANE nursing if they choose. My fmale friend who was raped many times through incest and is now a well known psychologist and speaker says he would talk to a male nurse over a female nurse for a variety of reasons. More importantly, a child abuse victim, he points out, will often allow the opposite sex of the abuser to examine him or her. Don't make the mistake of thinking male rapes are few, because included in that category are the child victims--who are often male. After all, most people wouldn't first suspect a young male was being repeatedly raped. Those are some of the worst cases I have seen due to the anal damage. In one legal case I have worked with, the child was raped anally over 150 times (the mother of the child actually kept track of oral or anal rape in a diary discovered by DHS when the abuse was discovered. She knew the abuse was happening.) It is a sickening and sad case. The child had severe sphincter damage as well as mucosal tears and scarring. Multiple surgeries have been and are planned to correct the damage.

I won't post any more about this subject at this time.

Frosty · Aug 24, 2005

I was a victim of gang rape occurring over a period of 18 months while serving in the military. A female nurse was assigned to me. Her response was "Bend over and take it like a man or be a real man and do something about it!" As I went through the process of emotional healing, the only people who were empathic were other men. The women, counselors as well as nurses, doctors, etc. were extremely biased and it showed in their treatment.

Several people have posted regarding the prevalence of male rape compared to that of women. Allow me to provide a few statistics:

*Approximately one in six boys is sexually abused before age 16

*As many as 1 in 5 males will be sexually abused before the age of 18.

*According to FBI figures in the USA, about one in 5 adult rape victims are male.

*In 1990 the San Francisco Rape Treatment Center saw 528 clients; 9.8% were men. In Boston, of the 250 people seen each year at Beth Israel Hospitals' rape crisis program, about 10% are men.

*There were approximately 4,890 rapes of males age 12 and over in the United States in 1994.

*In 1985, the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics reported in The Crime of Rape that there were 123,000 male rapes over a ten-year period

This does not include prison rape, college fraternity rape, or other "mass number" type rapes.

PLEASE do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to be mean or flame anyone. I just feel as if I need to show the numbers of male victims show a need for forensic nursing. I totally agree regarding a male nurse providing aftercare for a female victim. However, as a victim myself, I know intimately what a male victim feels and needs.

Please keep posting. I think we have touched on a very powerful topic, one that could potentially help others, if not now, perhaps in the future....

:balloons:

"Even after the sun stops rising and the earth stops turning, I will still be your friend." from a male friend who finally made the pain go away...

Forrest

[email protected]

beesnest · Aug 24, 2005

If you don't try, you certainly won't become aware of the need.

If there is no need, you will still have the knowledge that may help you and your patients in other situations.

I say go for it.

jlamb · Aug 24, 2005

I was a victim of gang rape occurring over a period of 18 months while serving in the military. A female nurse was assigned to me. Her response was "Bend over and take it like a man or be a real man and do something about it!" As I went through the process of emotional healing, the only people who were empathic were other men. The women, counselors as well as nurses, doctors, etc. were extremely biased and it showed in their treatment.
Several people have posted regarding the prevalence of male rape compared to that of women. Allow me to provide a few statistics:
*Approximately one in six boys is sexually abused before age 16
*As many as 1 in 5 males will be sexually abused before the age of 18.
*According to FBI figures in the USA, about one in 5 adult rape victims are male.
*In 1990 the San Francisco Rape Treatment Center saw 528 clients; 9.8% were men. In Boston, of the 250 people seen each year at Beth Israel Hospitals' rape crisis program, about 10% are men.
*There were approximately 4,890 rapes of males age 12 and over in the United States in 1994.
*In 1985, the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics reported in The Crime of Rape that there were 123,000 male rapes over a ten-year period
This does not include prison rape, college fraternity rape, or other "mass number" type rapes.
PLEASE do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to be mean or flame anyone. I just feel as if I need to show the numbers of male victims show a need for forensic nursing. I totally agree regarding a male nurse providing aftercare for a female victim. However, as a victim myself, I know intimately what a male victim feels and needs.
Please keep posting. I think we have touched on a very powerful topic, one that could potentially help others, if not now, perhaps in the future....
:balloons:
"Even after the sun stops rising and the earth stops turning, I will still be your friend." from a male friend who finally made the pain go away...
Forrest
[email protected]

Thank you for listing the statistics. You are right. We have touched on a powerful subject. I will continue to advocate for male SANE nurses. I will also reverse my decision to stop posting about the need.

To know there is need and not respond is tantamount to condoning it.

On a personal note, I am very sorry about your experience in the military. My heart goes out to you. Yours isn't an isolated incident, and emotional healing takes much more time than physical healing.

I am female, but a rape victim myself. The emotional healing still goes on. I was recently appointed to the Governor's Task Force to Stop the Sexual Violence. Our goal is to fund rape programs that address both male and female assaults, as well as other goals, including education, which according to these posts, is needed.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Aug 24, 2005

*In 1990 the San Francisco Rape Treatment Center saw 528 clients; 9.8% were men. In Boston, of the 250 people seen each year at Beth Israel Hospitals' rape crisis program, about 10% are men.[/email]

And please don't misunderstand me.

I'm not burying my head in the sand saying that only female rapes are important. I'm not saying male rapes don't happen. I'M SAYING THEY ARE UNDERRPORTED. And therefore, not enough work to make a go of being a male SANE nurse to treat males.

Look at your stats: In San Fran, 9.8% of 528 is less than 53 cases, a year. Not enough work to hang a career on. At Beth Israel, 25 cases A YEAR.

In both cases, within major cities, you would have to do alot of SANE work on females to make a living. And I don't think it's empathetic to put a woman in the position of even being allowed/forced to make a decision on a male nurse, in such a situation.

I can understand anecdotal evidence that some female nurses (read people) aren't understanding of male rape. But I can't see that men would be better; I'd suspect they'd be worse, and in any case, anecdotal evidence isn't scientific evidence.

I don't think it's appropriate for a male SANE nurse to push themselves on a female patient, and I don't think there is enough business to be a male SANE nurse for other males/children unless you are just working them PRN in your ED career. And even then, I think females would be more empathetic at that job generally (or more important, be PERCEIVED AS MORE EMPATHETIC), even if you can site specific anecdotal evidence otherwise. . .

I'm a male nurse, I'm very sensitive to being 'excluded'. I think males can and should do L&D, PP, etc. I'm very pro-male nurse in almost every aspect of nursing.

Except this one.

And even then, that's just my 2 cents.

~faith,

Timothy.

Frosty · Aug 24, 2005

Thanks for the positive response to my last post. I worried that I was being too strong, but I felt the need to do so anyway.

Jlamb -are you meeting with any success with the Governor's Task Force?

Timothy - I understand 100% where you are coming from. The incidents are underreported. Also the stastistical information is rather outdated

*In 1990 the San Francisco Rape Treatment Center saw 528 clients; 9.8% were men. In Boston, of the 250 people seen each year at Beth Israel Hospitals' rape crisis program, about 10% are men.

This was 15 years ago. Male self perception and empowerment has changed a lot in the last decade. Also, as more people are informed, more men become willing to come forward. For myself, I think a career could be made in say San Fransisco or Chicago working exclusively with male victims.

Forrest