BSN nurses - page 3

In recent lliterature it is stated that by 2010 all RN's coming out of school should be BSN's. Do you think this is reasonable in light of the nursing shortage?... Read More

  1. by   RN2007
    I am in Safety Harbor, FL and will probabbly start the ADN program at St Pete College - it is a Community College around 05 but am working on the 2 prerequisites I need starting in Aug 03 - the A&P courses. Although SPC has many college sites closer to me, their actual nursing program is taught out of the Education Bldg that is in Pinellas Park, FL which is around 45 minute drive from where I live and the nursing instructor told me their program will not have openings until 05'. I look forward to it. I am going to learn some medical terminology on my own in the meantime and learn how to do some of the nursing math - it couldn't hurt - right?
  2. by   twarlik
    Originally posted by RN2007
    I am in Safety Harbor, FL and will probabbly start the ADN program at St Pete College - it is a Community College around 05 but am working on the 2 prerequisites I need starting in Aug 03 - the A&P courses. Although SPC has many college sites closer to me, their actual nursing program is taught out of the Education Bldg that is in Pinellas Park, FL which is around 45 minute drive from where I live and the nursing instructor told me their program will not have openings until 05'. I look forward to it. I am going to learn some medical terminology on my own in the meantime and learn how to do some of the nursing math - it couldn't hurt - right?
    I'm actually hoping to move to the Tampa/St. Pete area after I graduate. Tampa General has a tuition payment program that I'm hoping to participate in.
    Re: drug math: Probably a good idea to start working on that. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but at FSU they're just expecting us to learn it ourselves. They're giving us a test the first week of class and we have to pass with a 100%. You get three tries to pass.

    Good luck with everything!
    Todd
  3. by   RN2007
    Twarlik, Well my goodness, they expect you take score 100%?? I mean, if you miss a few things, why would it cause you to fail or not pass? Are they just having you do that to get you used to taking the NCLEX? Is it even possible to make higher than 100? Anyway, good luck on your test and thanks for the info.
  4. by   Ortho_RN
    We have to take a math test every semester and have to make a 100% on every one with one retake..
  5. by   pama
    Until May 2003 only one state, North Dakota, required the BSN as enry into practice. The ND legislature repealed this requirement in May.

    The ND Nurses Association web site states:

    2003 ND LEGISLATURE CHANGES EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS

    The 2003 ND Legislature approved changes in the state's nursing education requirements, making them similar to requirements found in other states. ND had been the only state requiring a baccalaureate degree for registered nurses since 1987. In 2001 the ND Board of Nursing eliminated this educational requirement for out-of-state nurses and created a two-tired licensure system that mandated CE for RNs without baccalaureate degrees. Legislators supporting changing the requirements noted that in 1987 North Dakota was a leader in setting new nursing education standards but in 16 years no other states had chosen to follow.

    With the nursing shortage crisis I hope individuals will begin to value ALL levels of nursing education. ADN, Diploma and BSN's are all professional nurses and all do a great job!
  6. by   Sarah, RNBScN
    In Canada, by 2005 a BScN. will be a minimum requirement for nursing. They are phasing out the diploma nursing program. I don't know about the RPN program.

    Education in anything is NEVER a waste. Nurture your BRAIN.

    All the best in whatever you decide.
  7. by   BMS4
    I just wanted to add something. I do think that RN's need BSN's, however, I really appreciate the fact that I can work as a RN while working on my BSN. I feel like it makes me appreciate my degree that much more.
  8. by   peaceful2100
    Originally posted by pama

    Also, the ADN does better on the NCLEX-RN than the BSN graduate. Hospitals prefer the ADN directly out of school because of the skill level..
    Wow!!! That may have read better if you said that SOME ADN's does better on the NCLEX-RN than some BSN graduates. Also Most hospitals I know do not prefer the ADN or BSN out of school. At least the hospitals I know of around here.

    One school in my state is a BSN school and last year the class had 100% pass rate on the NCLEX. I know of a few other BSN programs in the country like that. I also know of some ADN programs that have 100% pass rate. I know of some ADN programs where scores are not so hot. Just like I know some BSN programs where scores are not so hot.

    Also where I'm going to work I am not getting any higher pay just because I have my BSN. I think that is crazy but I am not complaining yet.
  9. by   pama
    Peaceful2100, Perhap I should have said "National statistics from the NCLEX-RN for the past fifteen plus years for first time candidates has demonstrated the ADN graduate scored better on the exam than the BSN graduate". I did not make the stats up, nor did I mean to ruffle feathers.

    As I said in a previous post, it is time we all start working together. Once the RN is behind the name, we are all professional nurses, regardless of the degree or diploma.

    Hopefully you will not complain that you are not being paid more. Afterall you will be doing the same jobs, have the same license, and will be on the same professional level as the ADN and diploma nurse. All beginning Registered Nurses should be paid the same.
  10. by   sbic56
    pama

    I wanted to reply to that post, but knew it was for you to do so. Thanks. I agree with your post 100%.
  11. by   NRSKarenRN
    Gosnell, D. (May 31, 2002) "The 1965 Entry Into Practice Proposal - Is It Relevant Today?" Online Journal of Issues in Nursing. Vol. #7 No. #2, Overview and Summary. Available: http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18ntr.htm

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2002 Online Journal of Issues in Nursing
    Article published May 31, 2002
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY: THE 1965 ENTRY INTO PRACTICE PROPOSAL - IS IT RELEVANT TODAY?
    Davina J. Gosnell, PhD, RN, FAAN

    The topic of "Entry into Practice" is one that has plagued nursing for decades. Throughout this period, position statements have been regularly forthcoming from various professional organizations, no doubt the most remembered being the ANA "First Position on Education for Nursing" of 1965. Each has aroused debate and controversy, more often within the discipline of registered nurses, but also to a lesser extent by other communities of interest including physicians, hospitals, professional and educational organizations and associations, and the general public. The themes of these various documents have been to move formal nursing education out of the service sector and into academic education, to suggest the nature of education needed for the future, and to address nursing's anticipated future. Overall, entry into practice has been one of the most contentious issues in all of nursing.

    One might question why OJIN has chosen at this point in time to address the entry into practice issue. Many of the same questions raised with each position document published still remain. Are there now different answers to be found? What the reader will realize in examining the positions of authors Donley & Flaherty, Mahaffey, Nelson, and Joel is that the historical context of nearly half a century suggests varied perspectives in answer to the questions. It is not a matter of finding right and wrong answers but rather in understanding the differences in perspective and context.

    Especially interesting to note is that during the period of time examined, there has indeed been considerable change in the actual entry into practice demographics. For example, in the early 60's, 75% of all nurses were educated in diploma schools of nursing, 16% in baccalaureate programs, and associate degree nursing was in its infancy. By the year 2000, diploma education had dramatically declined to just 6%, while BSN doubled to 30%, but ADN has risen to nearly 60% of all new graduates. Indeed, entry into practice has changed! It is also somewhat sobering to note that although the vast majority of today's new nurse graduates are being educated in academic programs, today's nurses are the least educated of all health professionals with two-thirds possessing less than a baccalaureate education. In contrast, most other health professionals (i.e., therapists, speech pathologists, pharmacists) are now requiring entry into practice at the graduate level. Each of the authors provide insightful explanations of the evolutionary factors contributing to the entry into practice issue in nursing. Themes of professional turmoil, health care economics, feminine oppression, external societal controls, political and governmental policy, and lack of valuing of education are found in the perceptive critiques and analyses of these authors.

    In "Revisiting the American Nurses' Association First Position on Education for Nurses," Donley and Flaherty provide an insightful comparison and contrast between the education scene of the 1960's and the contemporary educational issues in nursing today. The authors offer not only an in depth review of the 1965 ANA Position Paper but clearly describe the parallel political forces and social issues occurring at the time. Interesting to note is their observation that "circumstances of 1965 are somewhat similar to those of today." Workplace issues, insufficient workforce supply, and lack of professional autonomy are noted to be parallel themes of the two periods.

    Mahaffey inThe Relevance of Associate Degree Nursing Education: Past, Present, Future" presents the reader with a comprehensive overview of the remarkable evolution of ADN education. The dramatic impact of ADN education is realized just in sheer numbers from 7 pilot programs in the 50's to more than 800 programs today. Mahaffey, like Donley and Flaherty, notes parallel societal issues of the decade of the 60's and today, including issues of nurse shortage, decreased interest in nursing as a career, and use of creative educational strategies. An important contribution of ADN education is that it has traditionally appealed to the non-traditional student - older, minorities, and males represent nearly twice as many ADN students than those in other type programs. Despite the relevant significant impact ADN education has had on the entry into nursing issue, Mahaffey notes that "decisions were sometimes made without significant representation of all program types." She further pleads an essential need for inclusion of the voice of ADN educators, as well as nurses in practice, in the groups who are designing a vision for nursing.

    In "Education for Professional Nursing Practice: Looking Backward into the Future" Nelson provides a retrospective review of educational developments in nursing since 1965. She too, as have the previous authors, identifies the similarities of societal and political pressures felt by nursing, both then and today. In contrast to Mahaffey's compelling argument as to the important contributions of ADN education, Nelson expresses concern that as in the past when, diploma programs served the needs of hospitals, so too today's associate degree nursing program has become primarily a vocational program with a terminal degree and serves as a lucrative offering for technical and community colleges. She then provides a series of compelling arguments in support of rationale for BSN entry into practice, and notes that several organizations have expressed preference for the BSN, including the American Organization of Nurse Executives and the Veterans Administration. She concludes that, "Doors to future educational changes should be kept open, but moving education to the BSN level is the first step."

    The last article by Joel entitled "Education for Entry into Nursing Practice: Revisited for the 21st Century" suggests that nursing education has not been in control of its own destiny but rather, "nursing has been dominated by an external loss of control" and has been "swept along by a host of societal and educational circumstances." Joel reiterates for us the true characteristics of a profession - service oriented, learned, and autonomous. Of service, she notes that service orientation must be relevant to the times and carefully orchestrated to meet specific societal needs. To be learned requires not only a unique body of knowledge and skill and considerable educational investment and rigor but also "cognitive artfulness." Autonomy, she reminds us, has two perspectives: the autonomy of the field of work and autonomy of the individual. She concludes that "nursing has resisted the normal course of occupational development" and notes that nurses have traditionally derived their identity from their statutory title, RN, rather than from their academic preparation. The clear differences in clinical competency between the associate degree nurse and the graduate level advanced practice nurse have been unquestionably demonstrated. Joel suggests further pursuit of this differentiation of practice and presents the view that "nursing would always be a work in the process of becoming."

    And so, as you, the reader, reflect on the issues of entry into practice not only from the perspectives of these authors, but from your own unique vantage point, I challenge you to share your thoughts, new insights, and reactions to these authors by either writing a letter to the Editor or by submitting a manuscript which will further elucidate the issue of entry into practice. We look forward to hearing from you.
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Jun 7, '03
  12. by   twarlik
    Originally posted by pama
    Peaceful2100, Perhap I should have said "National statistics from the NCLEX-RN for the past fifteen plus years for first time candidates has demonstrated the ADN graduate scored better on the exam than the BSN graduate". I did not make the stats up, nor did I mean to ruffle feathers.
    No feathers ruffled here!

    Just curious...where are you getting your stats from? I was checking out the website for the National Council of State Boards of Nursing and from what I could tell, ADN graduates don't score higher on the NCLEX. I had a hard time navigating their site and they certainly don't make the information easy to get to, so I could be incorrect. I also got info from the National Organization for Associate Degree Nursing website that said for the year 2000 BSN grads scored slightly higher. Think I put this in one of my earlier posts...

    Todd
  13. by   twarlik
    Thanks NRSKarenRN for your post!
    As someone who's just entering the field of nursing I think that it's so interesting to read about the history of this issue.
    One thing that caught my eye was the statement in one of the articles that Karen posted: "An important contribution of ADN education is that it has traditionally appealed to the non-traditional student - older, minorities, and males represent nearly twice as many ADN students than those in other type programs." I was just thinking about this the other day and was wondering if more "non-traditional" students persued an ADN education. I look around in classes I've taken at the community college and I am surrounded by older students. My classes at the university are predominately 20-something and female. Most are first-time students, fresh out of high school. Wondering if this is something anyone else has observed...?

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