What is the difference between NP and DNP?

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I was looking into future possibilities through Arizona State University and noticed that all their NP programs are "DNP". Does this mean you get the title of Dr. once you get this degree vs the NP degrees?

I have a long ways to go, but I can't find the answer to this anywhere and it's confusing.

Thanks,

Amber

Do you think it is okay for an optometrist to be called Dr?

What about the DNP holders that work in a clinical setting that do the same things that the real "doctors" would do.... such as... Adult Mental Health Psychiatric speciality... the DNP would give prescriptions to mental health patients, as a psychiatrist would.... ? I guess i reopened a big can of worms, eh?

Efy: "I make it clear to patients that I am a nurse. I will also make it clear I have a doctorate (in a few years). If they chose to call me Dr. I won't discourage that although I prefer to be called by my first name...I think in the same token, nurses should call physicians by their first name.

I'm glad you will make it clear to your patients that you are a nurse, because you ARE a nurse. Behind you comes a proud legacy of NURSES who practiced NURSING. As a NP (whether you have a DNP or a Masters) you will have additional training and (hopefully) experience that will let you practice as a mid-level provider - more than a nurse but not a Doctor (of medicine). And asking your patients to call you by your first name is your decision. I think it would be confusing, and to be blunt, inappropriately inflationary to tell them to call you 'Doctor'. But calling your bosses (ie - physicians) by their first name might not be appropriate...depends on what they want. If your "collaborating physician" wants you to call him Doctor, I'm guessing you're going to call him/her Doctor, and not Jim or Sue.

Reznurse: In an optometrists office, the optometrist is "Doc". In a dentist's office, the dentist can certainly be referred to as "Doc". Just as in my sister-in-law's lecture hall, she can be referred to as "Doc". Nobody thinks my sister-in-law is going to perform medicine when she is going through her power-point/lecture on creative writing. Same thing goes with an EdD principal in a local junior high, or a chemistry PhD in a lab - you can call them "Doctor" all you want there - - - but for a medical professional (other than a Physician) to call themselves a Doctor in a medical setting (hospital, providers office, emergency department, etc) is beyond disingenuous, it is propagating disinformation.

Think about it this way - what do you think is going to happen to the first DNP who faces a malpractice lawsuit after introducing themself as "Doctor Smith" to a patient who had a poor outcome. On the witness stand, the patient testifies they thought the provider was a doctor. After all, they introduced themselves as "Doctor Smith!". If they knew the provider wasn't a doctor, they would have asked for a doctor instead because they just KNEW the therapy the "fake doctor" prescribed them was wrong, but, since they were a DOCTOR, they figgured the DOCTOR must have been right! Then, the DNP gets on the stand. Plaintiff's attorney has two questions to ask: "How did you introduce yourself to my client", which the DNP answers "Doctor Smith", and "Are you a medical doctor?" - - "No" - -Whoops, case closed, $10 million to the plaintiff.

PICUPNP - you're right. Anyone who uses the title of "doctor" in a clinical setting makes themselves look like a plumped up pheasant - just waiting to get their a$$es shot by the closest malpractice lawyer - errr....hunter...see above.

AJHILL - While mid-level providers do many of the same things that Doctor's do, they ARE NOT DOCTORS and should go through great pains to ensure that EVERY patient they care for understands they are not doctors. They are physician assistants/nurse practitioners/anesthesiologist assistants/etc. As an example, a DNP of nursing, with a NP in psychiatric nursing, requires 4 years of nursing schooling, 1+ year of psychiatric nursing, and 2+ years of DNP education. Psychiatric Medical education requires 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school, and then 4 years of psychiatric residency. Hmmmm.....7 years vice 12 years.....big difference just in the timeframe, bigger difference if you compare the differences in actual education (classes) and clinical experience (about 700 clinical hours for a NP vice 17000 clinical hours for a board certified physician). PA/NP/DNPs are NOT medical doctors, and while they may do 50-85% of what "real" doctors do in clinical settings, they should NEVER confuse their patients about that FACT.

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

Disinherited - DNP's, PhD's, and other people with doctoral degrees ARE "real" doctors. They are just not physicians. Therefore, it would not be "disinformation" as you call it.

The use of the "doctor" title by people with doctorates in fields other than medicine is technically correct and perfectly legal. Nurses with PhD's have been using the "doctor" title for years ... as have Psychologists, Pharm.D.'s, etc.

We all need to be clear though, when we communicate our role -- and we need to educate the public about the many disciplines they will encounter throughout life who have non-medical doctorates.

You seem to be unusual passionate in your post, disinherited. Does this topic hit some special nerve with you? Do you have some special reason to be so bothered by the topic?

I see you are a brand new member -- and that ALL of your posts so far have been bashing NP's. What gives?

llg - Absolutely folks with PhD, DNPs, DsCs, etc ad nauseum are "real" Doctors...within their profession. A DNP is a Doctoral level NURSE, not a Doctoral level physician. It is a rare patient, especially in a clinical setting, who will be able to differentiate between the two. That means it is incumbent upon the providers to not confuse the patient by using the term Doctor unless they are referring to a physician.

As I said before, a Dentist is "Doctor" in a dentists office, a Optomitrist is "Doctor" in a optimistrists office, and my sister-in-law can be "Doc" in her creative writing class, but not in any other sort of clinical setting (ie - hospital). In this setting, where patients equate DOCTORs with PHYSICIANS, A DNP is a NURSE, a Dentist is a DENTIST, an Optomitrist is a OPTOMITRIST, and my sister-in-law is a PROFESSOR.

No unusual passion here...just a firm belief that those who want to be called "Doctor" by patients should go to medical school and become a physician. Those who don't go to medical school, but suggest/allow patients to call them "doctor" are, at the least, simple posers (to steal a word from my teenagers). At worst, they are impersonating a physician.

And I am not bashing NPs at all. Mid-level providers fill an incredibly important role in our medical system, and I have known several outstanding NPs who I would not hesitate to have as my, or my families, PCM. I have also worked with some outstanding ED NPs. I'm not bashing NPs at all, I think the whole PA/NP mid-level thing is a great idea. However I do have significant problems with how SOME NPs are educated - - I think direct entry NP programs should be completely eliminated! Furthermore, I think a nurse (or dentist, optomistrist, chemist, or creative writing professor) who attempts to pass themselves off as a doctor to a patient (who defines a "doctor" as a "physician") is being criminally negligent.

llg - Absolutely folks with PhD, DNPs, DsCs, etc ad nauseum are "real" Doctors...within their profession. A DNP is a Doctoral level NURSE, not a Doctoral level physician. It is a rare patient, especially in a clinical setting, who will be able to differentiate between the two. That means it is incumbent upon the providers to not confuse the patient by using the term Doctor unless they are referring to a physician.

It is incumbent upon us to assume that all of our patients lack the ability to discern our clinical role?

Way to disparage, well, pretty much everyone's intelligence with your wide, sweeping generalizations.

As I said before, a Dentist is "Doctor" in a dentists office, a Optomitrist is "Doctor" in a optimistrists office, and my sister-in-law can be "Doc" in her creative writing class, but not in any other sort of clinical setting (ie - hospital). In this setting, where patients equate DOCTORs with PHYSICIANS, A DNP is a NURSE, a Dentist is a DENTIST, an Optomitrist is a OPTOMITRIST, and my sister-in-law is a PROFESSOR.

What would you think about a PMHNP with a DNP, who happens to be in private practice. Would that person not qualify as a "Doctor" in his or her own practice? Is the psych DNP's office- certainly a clinical setting- actually the domain of only the PHYSICIAN? I think certainly you would have many PhDs and PsyDs disagreeing with you. (google APA resolution 303 if you don't belive me)

No unusual passion here...just a firm belief that those who want to be called "Doctor" by patients should go to medical school and become a physician. Those who don't go to medical school, but suggest/allow patients to call them "doctor" are, at the least, simple posers (to steal a word from my teenagers). At worst, they are impersonating a physician.

Hmmm. People who have received doctoral decrees, and have the audacity to perhaps be called "Doctor" are poseurs.....interesting world in which you must live.

This is the first time I've really gotten involved in this whole mucky debate about Dr vs non-Dr, but the rancor and condescension oozing out of this post have grabbed my attention.

And I am not bashing NPs at all. Mid-level providers fill an incredibly important role in our medical system, and I have known several outstanding NPs who I would not hesitate to have as my, or my families, PCM. I have also worked with some outstanding ED NPs. I'm not bashing NPs at all, I think the whole PA/NP mid-level thing is a great idea. However I do have significant problems with how SOME NPs are educated - - I think direct entry NP programs should be completely eliminated! Furthermore, I think a nurse (or dentist, optomistrist, chemist, or creative writing professor) who attempts to pass themselves off as a doctor to a patient (who defines a "doctor" as a "physician") is being criminally negligent.

Kindly refer to my response above.

It is incumbent upon us to assume that all of our patients lack the ability to discern our clinical role?

Isn't a primary role of nursing the education of patients? If you want to come into your patients room and introduce yourself as 'Hi, I'm Dr. Elisha, I have a Doctorate of Nursing, which allows me to be a Nurse Practitioner which is a mid-level medical provider position very similar to a Physician Assistant and Anesthesiologist Assistants. I will work in collaboration with other doctors, including board certified physicians, to ensure you receive the best possible care.".....then I'm great with you calling yourself Doctor because you have clearly identified yourself as a NURSE, and you have given your patient an education on the medical system which will be caring for them. If you don't have time to go through all of this, then I think you should introduce yourself as a Nurse Practitioner.

Way to disparage, well, pretty much everyone's intelligence with your wide, sweeping generalizations.

Stop it. I'm not disparaging anyone. Can we please discuss things without resorting to shallow insults like this.

What would you think about a PMHNP with a DNP, who happens to be in private practice. Would that person not qualify as a "Doctor" in his or her own practice? Is the psych DNP's office- certainly a clinical setting- actually the domain of only the PHYSICIAN? I think certainly you would have many PhDs and PsyDs disagreeing with you. (google APA resolution 303 if you don't belive me) {/quote]

Again, if you want to take the time to ensure your patient is educated on what your education level is, what your provider level is (ie - mid-level, you are NOT a physicain), and that you will be working in collaboration with a Physician-doctor, then I don't have a problem.

The problem I have, and one which I think is going to bite many DNPs in the a$$, is if a DNP comes into the patient room and says "Hi, I'm Doctor Smith, what am I seeing you for today." This is WRONG. Again, at best this DNP would be a poser, at worst, they would be criminally negligent.

Hmmm. People who have received doctoral decrees, and have the audacity to perhaps be called "Doctor" are poseurs.....interesting world in which you must live.

Again, can we refrain from the personal jabs and try to understand points? I clearly wrote that I don't have a problem with folks who have earned doctoral degrees using the term 'doctor'....in an appropriate setting. If my sister-in-law (PhD) stops at a car accident, she damn well better not introduce herself as "Doctor Smith". She is certainly welcome to take the time and discuss her PhD in creative writing with the injured driver, but I think she's smart enough not to confuse the situation by throwing out the term "Doctor" in that situation. A DNP who stops at the same accident is similarly welcome to discuss their DNP education, which makes them a doctor, but not a physician. But hopefully that DNP would be as smart as my sister-in-law and not confuse the situation by throwing out the term "Doctor" at all.

Specializes in ACNP, ICU.

Many years ago, when a person said "doctor" in a clinical setting, there was only one person they could possibly be referring to. However, times change. The practice of medicine has become so complex that a multidisciplinary approach is necessary and these people need/are educated at the doctoral level. The only thing keeping these people from being referred to as doctor is a long standing tradition. Well, tradition has never been a good argument for doing something in health care......but who cares? Its all about the patients anyways, right?

wasnt this thread about the difference between NP and DNP?...If you look closely, the is "D" before the "NP".

This is a point that some dnps will never get through their heads. It is only a few that will take this position, and these are the ones who have the "mundinger syndrome". They think that because they have taken some extra fluff classes that they can perform at the level of a physician..they can't! I'm a practicing np and would never intro myself as doctor nor would I let my patients or their families refer to me as doctor. Its negligence. dnps don't have near the education of a doctor nor the thousands of hours of residency and internship. They can provide primary care at a simple level but not at the level of a physician.

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

The nurses I know who use the title "Dr." do make it clear, that they are nurses and not physicians. I don't know anyone who would say simply, "I am Dr. X" to a patient in an exam room without adding that they are nurse practitioner. That would be misleading due to the common expectation of the patient. I think we can all agree with that. That's why people don't do that in real life. But that's no reason not NEVER to use the title "Dr." It's easy enough to add a brief explanation as appropriate, "I'm Dr. X, the Nurse Practitioner." When we use the "Dr." title, we add a little explanation -- as a way of clarifying our role and educating the public.

Disinherited, you are railing against a practice that is not prevalent in real life -- a lot of sound and fury over a practice that is not happening much - if at all.

Perhaps I should add in this discussion so that readers will know my perspective. I am not a DNP. I am a PhD who works in a hospital setting.

Specializes in ACNP, ICU.
This is a point that some dnps will never get through their heads. It is only a few that will take this position, and these are the ones who have the "mundinger syndrome". They think that because they have taken some extra fluff classes that they can perform at the level of a physician..they can't! I'm a practicing np and would never intro myself as doctor nor would I let my patients or their families refer to me as doctor. Its negligence. dnps don't have near the education of a doctor nor the thousands of hours of residency and internship. They can provide primary care at a simple level but not at the level of a physician.

Im not sure if your angry people want to use the title "doctor" or if your mad about NPs misrepresenting themselves. It is technically 2 different points. wanting to use a title does not equate to wanting an expansion of scope. for my view, the patients should be educated that many "Doctors" will be involved in their care. some are physicians, some are nurses, some are Pharmacist....ect. It will be a while before patients get it, but I've learned patients seldom get anything the first time around.

ANyone who says that optometrists and dentists don't call themselves doctor in a clinical setting is wrong. Like I said I have several family members who are optometrists, we have had this discussion and they call themselves doctors all of the time, b/c they are. Same goes with dentists, podiatrists, etc. Obviously there are different kinds of doctors and when necessary the patients need to be told the difference.

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