Nurses, physicians weigh in on new doctoral nurse degree

[Brian]

New Degree Creates Doctor Nurses-And Confusion

All Things Considered, February 22, 2009

No one wants to badmouth Florence Nightingale, but a new degree for nurses is causing bad blood between doctors and their longtime colleagues. The program confers the title of doctor on nurses, but some in the medical profession say only physicians should call themselves "doctor."

Dr. Steven Knope is a family practitioner in Tucson, Ariz. "If you're on an airline," he jokes, "and a poet with a Ph.D. is there and somebody has a heart attack, and they say 'Is there a doctor in the house?'-should the poet stand up?" Knope laughs. "Of course not."

Physicians such as Knope say the title of doctor implies a certain amount of training, hours in medical school that nurses just don't have. Dr. Ted Epperly, president of the American Association of Family Practitioners, says that while doctors place a high value on nurses, sharing the same title could confuse-and even harm-patients.

Full Story and listen to radio show here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100921215

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

Check for yourself but I'm pretty certain Universities in the State of AZ are DNP only now. Someone please correct me of I'm wrong, but the last grandfathered MS NP semester was Fall 2008 and those NP grads are being encouraged to seek a DNP education. This decision was made several years back by the AZ BON.

And your welcome to double quote me again if it makes your argument stronger next time. :)

Northern Arizona University still has an MSN-FNP program, with no plans to transition to DNP.

[BabyLady, BSN, RN]

Check for yourself but I'm pretty certain Universities in the State of AZ are DNP only now. Someone please correct me of I'm wrong, but the last grandfathered MS NP semester was Fall 2008 and those NP grads are being encouraged to seek a DNP education. This decision was made several years back by the AZ BON.

And your welcome to double quote me again if it makes your argument stronger next time. :)

It appears the State of Arizona isn't making that change mandatory for practice until 2015.

There are 5 Universities offering the DNP currently, but it won't be required by AZ for practice until 2015.

So if you graduate before 2015 in Arizona with your Masters, you'll be good to go.

http://www.arizonanp.com/faq.aspx

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

It appears the State of Arizona isn't making that change mandatory for practice until 2015.

There are 5 Universities offering the DNP currently, but it won't be required by AZ for practice until 2015.

So if you graduate before 2015 in Arizona with your Masters, you'll be good to go.

http://www.arizonanp.com/faq.aspx

I'll believe it when I see something from the Arizona Board of Nursing saying that.

[hbgwan, LPN, LVN]

re: the pt suffering a MI on an airplane and the flight attendant asking if there is a doctor on board, if the poet who has his PhD stands up and says "yes, i'm a doctor", he should be sent into exile. if the man was able to go ahead and get his PhD in whatever-it-is, he should be smart enough to distinguish between the need of an MD doctor and a PhD doctor. to that end, the doctor who does not agree with nurses being called doctor simply feels threatened that the MDiety will eventually no longer be seen as such.

[diane227, LPN, RN]

I am a BNS prepared nurse. I wear a lab coat every day. The patients always think that I am the doctor. I always have to explain myself. If I had a Ph D, referring to myself as Doctor would depend on the setting I was in. If it were an academic setting, Doctor would be appropriate. However, when caring for a patient, I believe that the term "doctor" should only refer to MD or DO physicians. Otherwise, too confusing for the patient.

[*RN123ABC*]

Isn't is really a moot point? I know a dozen NPs and I don't know a single one that goes by a title. They are not Mr or Ms so and so. They are Sue, Joe and Mike, etc, the nurse practitioner. I really doubt if "Mike" goes back for his DNP, he is going to say, "Sorry, you can't call me Mike anymore, I'm Dr. Smith to you now." Seriously, NPs just don't have that kind of authoratiative relationship with patients; it really defies the nature of nursing practice. So what difference does it make what they call themselves at church suppers?

The PhamDs at my hosp go by their first names. If they wanted to be called doctor, I guess we'd call them that. I doubt there would be sudden onset of confusion. Hell, we call the CEO Doctor (he demands it), and he has an Ed.D. I'm sure when patients and community people hear the CEO of a hospital system referred to as "Doctor" they assume he is a physician. I guess we don't have to worry though, b/c he is a germaphobe and OCD, he doesn't go near "sick people!"

And I'm not buying the "confusing for patients" business. All that needs to happen is for WEBMD to run one article about the DNP and the patients will all be saavy to it, lol. 80% of my patients are more informed (not always well informed, but they google like mad people) about their myriad of disorders than I am. Another 18% are educatable, that last 2% can't be taught that LittleDebbie is not a food group, so the intricacies of specialty practice are going to be as mysterious as the aurora borealis anyway. The general public will require an explanation and an introduction, once. They will get it.

If the DNP makes us better clinicians (I'm not convinced, but I'm waiting to see what develops) I'm all for it. My patients (and you guys) will still be able to call me the Wunder though.

[cruisin_woodward]

Wayne State University and the University of Michigan have already switched over. Other schools such as Oakland University still offer both programs for now. I definately see all of MI switching before 2015.

[CountyRat]

What does Dr. Knope call psychologists and dentists with whom he has professional contact? Has their use of the title "doctor," based on their achievement of a doctoral degree in a subject other than medicine, caused confusion among thier patients? Why are nurses the only doctorally trained professionals that he thinks should be denied their earned title?

In any case, the question is mute. Nursing is an independent, self-regulating profession that defines its own titles and scope of practice. Those who object to nurses advancing their education (though they have no objections to others doing so) can cry in their beer. This is our call, not theirs.

[rn2bnwi, BSN, RN]

First let me start off by saying that I will be an MD in about 4 months. My wife is a nurse and we're investigating potential places for my residency, and part of that involves finding out about places for her to work which is why I'm here.

I may be unpopular, but I agree that in a clinical setting only MDs and DOs should call themselves "Doctor." In an academic setting anyone with a doctoral level degree should be called "Doctor." In a clinical setting the term "Doctor" has a very set definition by the public that assumes the completion of a very stringent and grueling four years of medical school leading to an MD or DO. In a clinical setting people equate "Doctor" with physician. This will not change anytime soon, and it's not something that can willfully be changed. I have medical student friends who have PhDs, but despite the fact that they have an earned doctorate they will not call themselves "Doctor" in a clinical setting because patients would assume that they are a medical school graduate. The same thing goes for lawyers, pharmacists, some physical therapists, biochemists, exercise physiologists, occupational therapists, etc. In an academic setting (symposium, lecture, conference, graduation, etc) all of these people should be referred to as "Dr. X" because it recognizes the expertise they have in an area. However, in a clinical setting none of these people refer to themselves as "Doctor."

I will agree with you that this debate is not only aimed at DN's and that people I know with Phds are often not allowed to use their title when they work in hospitals (its not policy but the Md's get upset) but i have to say I have a son with medical issues and the 'title' doctor means absolutely nothing to me in terms of faith or knowledge. i wouldn't let a family practioner near him in treatment of his epilepsy because their training is just to little but there are physician's assistants and NP that work in conjuction with epilogist that i feel extremely confident in. but I honestly think the term "md' does not inform me all that much or give me confidence in their training. we have utilized urgent cares for our kids over the years and had a mix of md's and np's and honestly to my surprise the np's have given us what i deemed better care more times than not. But i think that MD's possibly are placing to much in their title and what the public perceives from it. I would have no trouble calling a dn a dr because they have done a different extensive training and they have passed basically the same boards that mds have. (if they hadn't i would see that as being a valid argument) I guess i don't see a legit situation by them going by a title they earned would mislead or put a pt in danger. plus i assume their name badge will say doctrate of nursing under their name.

[CountyRat]

First let me start off by saying that I will be an MD in about 4 months. My wife is a nurse and we're investigating potential places for my residency, and part of that involves finding out about places for her to work which is why I'm here.

I may be unpopular, but I agree that in a clinical setting only MDs and DOs should call themselves "Doctor."

I agree with you, doctor. Where I disagree is in Dr. Knope's speculation nurse will confuse patients by earning PhDs. As a practical matter, I have never heard a nurse with a PhD call herself doctor. All that I know or have heard of refer to themselves as "nurse practitioner," "clinical specialist," "professor of nursing," or whatever their role is. Honestly doctor, we are not trying to make people think that we are your equivalents. We are not physicians, we do not want to be physicins (much though we respect you who are), and we are not trying to fool anyone into thinking that we are physicians. We are only trying to elevate the level of our profession with higher levels of education, just like other professionals do, without opposition.

Finally, I repeat my question: what do you call clinical psychologists and dentist when you great them in a professional setting? What do you call them when refering to them during conversations with patients? You seem to be a very polite and thoughtful man, so I doubt that you insult them by calling them Mr. or Ms. Or am I wrong about that?

[bigfishsmallpond]

I read the artcle on the outraged doctor, nervous about patients being "mislead" by nurses with doctoral degrees...it's funny they are not concerned with sharing the physician name with the PAs.When physicians no longer controlled nurse's "training", and we went to the colleges and universities for our EDUCATION,they lost their ability to impact our practice.

A note on the MI on the plane: This did happen to a friend of mine. They asked if there was a doctor on board- medical emergency in first class, No response. My friend stood up and said "I am a nurse. Can I help?" She ended up doing cpr, started an IV and actually defibbed him with the AED on the plane. As they landed, and the patient was taken to the hospital, a passenger stopped and told the captain that he was a doctor, and he would follow the pt in the hospital. The captain :bowingpurlaughed and said," I guess this guy was lucky -the nurse was here to save his life.Now you'd like to consult and bill him????"

[michelleernurse]

I am a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) and it is so sad the Physicians feel so threatened by the advancement of nursing in the health care arena. Here is food for thought....What about all the PhD prepared Scientist, biologist, etc.. would a Physician address these individuals anything but Dr.? I think not, Physicians only have a problem with nursing because they need someone to dump their work on and then walk away, they want maid service, well those days are coming to an end my friends in the near future. DNPs in the future will become their own Independent health care providers, in the near future,,, advanced practice nurses will no longer work "below" and need a MD in order to practice, we will be the independent health care providers just as the MD.

Physicians are mad because they don't want to share their candy, so what do they do ... they try to go and buy up all the candy stores, meaning they send their "people" to Lobby for legislation to undermine and keep nurses from advancement as independent providers, but given the health care crisis and all the fraud and greed .... nurses will be pushed forward in healthcare. Contact your Congressmen and tell them you are a nurse and give them your professional ideas how healthcare can be improved.