DNP vs MD

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What is the difference between DNP and MD? How long does it take to become a DNP if you already have BSN degree? I thought nurses had problems with docs, but one day I visited the student doctor website and I was surprised to see how many student docs, docs, pharmacists were against the DNP program/degree and some did not have any respect for nurses. Many had horrible things to say about nursing and nurses, they said it's easy to become a nurse and not a lot of training is required. One person said, "lets face it, doctors can survive without nurses and they can have a resident do what nurses do, but if the hospital takes the doctors out the nurses will struggle and the hospital will die."

Do doctors forget that nurses are the largest group of healthcare? Doctors are never there to see the condition of their patients, they don't know if the meds are doing what they are supposed to do. Nurses are the ones that know the patients better and they let the docs know what is going on.

Some said," if nurses want to be called doctors they should go to medical school and not attending a new program DNP. To be a doctor they need more years of school." I swear some people think that years of school predict intelligence, years of school make you a better nurse, doctor, etc. Really, what's the difference in school years between DNP and MD ?

It's becoming a big war b/w nurses and doctors. Let's face it, one can't work without the other. They both need each others help.

Yeah, instead evolving with times maybe we should go back to the days where one of the first anesthesia courses was 3 weeks long and taught on the back porch of a hospital. We don't need degrees or to even be certified. We are just dumb old nurses anyways, right? We shouldn't seek to improve our profession. This way has worked in the past so we don't need to change anything. Who needs leaders in EBP anyways?....

Exactly

I'm actually still torn between the "degree creep" and "leaders in EBP" arguments. I can see both sides. I think the best outcome would be to keep the MSN as the entry to practice degree and offer the DNP for those who want it. I'd really hate the DNP become required.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
I'm actually still torn between the "degree creep" and "leaders in EBP" arguments. I can see both sides. I think the best outcome would be to keep the MSN as the entry to practice degree and offer the DNP for those who want it. I'd really hate the DNP become required.

That is already being done. CRNAs are the only APN group that has fully adopted the clinical doctorate right now, and that requirement doesn't even go into effect until 2025. All other APNs have no such requirement and can continue to get an MSN to gain entry into practice.

Yeah, instead evolving with times maybe we should go back to the days where one of the first anesthesia courses was 3 weeks long and taught on the back porch of a hospital. We don't need degrees or to even be certified. We are just dumb old nurses anyways, right? We shouldn't seek to improve our profession. This way has worked in the past so we don't need to change anything. Who needs leaders in EBP anyways?...

Sarcasm intended.

The irony is PHYSICIANS used to learn the same way... :)

That's funny. Paramedics start getting bachelor's degrees and asking for jobs in ERs and BSN CENs lose thier **** about it but NPs start getting clinical doctorates and it's all good.

Note: I'm working on a DNP, so I certainly support the idea. Just seems a little disengenous when you look at how nursing treats allied health.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
That's funny. Paramedics start getting bachelor's degrees and asking for jobs in ERs and BSN CENs lose thier **** about it but NPs start getting clinical doctorates and it's all good.

Note: I'm working on a DNP, so I certainly support the idea. Just seems a little disengenous when you look at how nursing treats allied health.

I am not sure how that is even applicable to this discussion.

A DNP is continuation of education, and it gives absolutely no further clinical change of authority or ability to do anything that outside of what any other APN could already do prior to the advent of the DNP.

A paramedic getting their BSN in emergency services, and then expecting to take that degree to work inside the hospital ER is lateral move that isn't well covered in their education, nor is it allowed in many hospitals beyond the basic ER tech level, and the majority of care inside the ER is more focused on acute care not actual emergency care furthering the cognitive distance from the education that paramedics receive.

That is already being done. CRNAs are the only APN group that has fully adopted the clinical doctorate right now, and that requirement doesn't even go into effect until 2025. All other APNs have no such requirement and can continue to get an MSN to gain entry into practice.

Right, that doesn't mean it won't change. I am speaking hypothetically.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Right, that doesn't mean it won't change. I am speaking hypothetically.

The clinical doctorate will probably become a requirement for all APNs at some point, but just like when the MSN became a requirement I would expect that NPs that still have their MSN will be grandfathered in.

I am not sure how that is even applicable to this discussion.

A DNP is continuation of education, and it gives absolutely no further clinical change of authority or ability to do anything that outside of what any other APN could already do prior to the advent of the DNP.

A paramedic getting their BSN in emergency services, and then expecting to take that degree to work inside the hospital ER is lateral move that isn't well covered in their education, nor is it allowed in many hospitals beyond the basic ER tech level, and the majority of care inside the ER is more focused on acute care not actual emergency care furthering the cognitive distance from the education that paramedics receive.

Wrong. The DNP is intended to help NP's compete with doctors by trying to negate the educational difference between an MD and NP. That's why CRNAs will require a DNP. Slowly all NP's will require a DNP even if its online through a for-profit college.

The degree you're thinking of that is purely to advance nursing knowledge has been around for along time- it's called a Nursing PhD.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Wrong. The DNP is intended to help NP's compete with doctors by trying to negate the educational difference between an MD and NP. That's why CRNAs will require a DNP. Slowly all NP's will require a DNP even if its online through a for-profit college.

The degree you're thinking of that is purely to advance nursing knowledge has been around for along time- it's called a Nursing PhD.

Really and you are getting this information from where? The DNP/DNAP in no official position statement that I have seen anywhere states that it is meant to be competitive degree to compete against physicians.

That doesn't even make sense since the DNP/DNAP does not mandate any more clinical hours over the old MSN requirements.

A PhD is designed to make someone an expert in research not to increase someones clinical knowledge or expertise. A clinical doctorate is designed to increase clinical knowledge and make someone and expert in the use of research. A PhD and clinical doctorates are both terminal degrees, but they are different types of degrees.

"INTRODUCING THE DOCTOR OF NURSING PRACTICE

  • In many institutions, advanced practice registered nurses (APRNs), including Nurse Practitioners, Clinical Nurse Specialists, Certified Nurse Mid-Wives, and Certified Nurse Anesthetists, are prepared in master's-degree programs that often carry a credit load equivalent to doctoral degrees in the other health professions. AACN's position statement calls for educating APRNs and nurses seeking top systems/organizational roles in DNP programs.
  • DNP curricula build on traditional master's programs by providing education in evidence-based practice, quality improvement, and systems leadership, among other key areas.
  • The DNP is designed for nurses seeking a terminal degree in nursing practice and offers an alternative to research-focused doctoral programs. DNP-prepared nurses are well-equipped to fully implement the science developed by nurse researchers prepared in PhD, DNSc, and other research-focused nursing doctorates.

WHY MOVE TO THE DNP?

  • The changing demands of this nation's complex healthcare environment require the highest level of scientific knowledge and practice expertise to assure quality patient outcomes. The Institute of Medicine, Joint Commission, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and other authorities have called for reconceptualizing educational programs that prepare today’s health professionals.
  • Some of the many factors building momentum for change in nursing education at the graduate level include: the rapid expansion of knowledge underlying practice; increased complexity of patient care; national concerns about the quality of care and patient safety; shortages of nursing personnel which demands a higher level of preparation for leaders who can design and assess care; shortages of doctorally-prepared nursing faculty; and increasing educational expectations for the preparation of other members of the healthcare team.
  • In a 2005 report titled Advancing the Nation's Health Needs: NIH Research Training Programs, the National Academy of Sciences called for nursing to develop a non-research clinical doctorate to prepare expert practitioners who can also serve as clinical faculty. AACN's work to advance the DNP is consistent with this call to action.
  • Nursing is moving in the direction of other health professions in the transition to the DNP. Medicine (MD), Dentistry (DDS), Pharmacy (PharmD), Psychology (PsyD), Physical Therapy (DPT), and Audiology (AudD) all offer practice doctorates." American Association of Colleges of Nursing | DNP Fact Sheet | TEST

http://www.aana.com/ceandeducation/educationalresources/Documents/AANA_Position_DTF_June_2007.pdf

So now we are left with the decision of pursuing MD or DNP... 3 years (11 semesters) for full time DNP program, $80000 to 5 years ( part time) $75000-105,000 or MD: 4 years unpaid plus 3 paid about 50k and about $100k for tuition... Making double that of a DNP.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
So now we are left with the decision of pursuing MD or DNP... 3 years (11 semesters) for full time DNP program, $80000 to 5 years ( part time) $75000-105,000 or MD: 4 years unpaid plus 3 paid about 50k and about $100k for tuition... Making double that of a DNP.

Except most people work full or part-time during their DNP programs. I worked full-time, deployed, and completed a full-time DNAP program in 2 years (post-MSN).

Medical/DO school with residency/internship is a minimum of 8 years with low pay during internship/residency.

A CRNAs average pay is more than FP physicians. The average salary for NPs is around 100K which about 2/3 what the average FP physician makes. There just isn't a simple way to compare salaries and loss of incomes when considering DNP/APN or MD.

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