DNP vs MD - page 7

What is the difference between DNP and MD? How long does it take to become a DNP if you already have BSN degree? I thought nurses had problems with docs, but one day I visited the student doctor... Read More

  1. Visit  SycamoreGuy} profile page
    0
    Quote from wtbcrna
    That is already being done. CRNAs are the only APN group that has fully adopted the clinical doctorate right now, and that requirement doesn't even go into effect until 2025. All other APNs have no such requirement and can continue to get an MSN to gain entry into practice.
    Right, that doesn't mean it won't change. I am speaking hypothetically.
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  3. Visit  wtbcrna} profile page
    0
    Quote from SycamoreGuy
    Right, that doesn't mean it won't change. I am speaking hypothetically.
    The clinical doctorate will probably become a requirement for all APNs at some point, but just like when the MSN became a requirement I would expect that NPs that still have their MSN will be grandfathered in.
  4. Visit  redlion777} profile page
    0
    Quote from wtbcrna
    I am not sure how that is even applicable to this discussion.
    A DNP is continuation of education, and it gives absolutely no further clinical change of authority or ability to do anything that outside of what any other APN could already do prior to the advent of the DNP.

    A paramedic getting their BSN in emergency services, and then expecting to take that degree to work inside the hospital ER is lateral move that isn't well covered in their education, nor is it allowed in many hospitals beyond the basic ER tech level, and the majority of care inside the ER is more focused on acute care not actual emergency care furthering the cognitive distance from the education that paramedics receive.
    Wrong. The DNP is intended to help NP's compete with doctors by trying to negate the educational difference between an MD and NP. That's why CRNAs will require a DNP. Slowly all NP's will require a DNP even if its online through a for-profit college.
    The degree you're thinking of that is purely to advance nursing knowledge has been around for along time- it's called a Nursing PhD.
  5. Visit  wtbcrna} profile page
    2
    Quote from redlion777
    Wrong. The DNP is intended to help NP's compete with doctors by trying to negate the educational difference between an MD and NP. That's why CRNAs will require a DNP. Slowly all NP's will require a DNP even if its online through a for-profit college.
    The degree you're thinking of that is purely to advance nursing knowledge has been around for along time- it's called a Nursing PhD.
    Really and you are getting this information from where? The DNP/DNAP in no official position statement that I have seen anywhere states that it is meant to be competitive degree to compete against physicians.
    That doesn't even make sense since the DNP/DNAP does not mandate any more clinical hours over the old MSN requirements.
    A PhD is designed to make someone an expert in research not to increase someones clinical knowledge or expertise. A clinical doctorate is designed to increase clinical knowledge and make someone and expert in the use of research. A PhD and clinical doctorates are both terminal degrees, but they are different types of degrees.

    "INTRODUCING THE DOCTOR OF NURSING PRACTICE


    • In many institutions, advanced practice registered nurses (APRNs), including Nurse Practitioners, Clinical Nurse Specialists, Certified Nurse Mid-Wives, and Certified Nurse Anesthetists, are prepared in master's-degree programs that often carry a credit load equivalent to doctoral degrees in the other health professions. AACN's position statement calls for educating APRNs and nurses seeking top systems/organizational roles in DNP programs.
    • DNP curricula build on traditional master's programs by providing education in evidence-based practice, quality improvement, and systems leadership, among other key areas.
    • The DNP is designed for nurses seeking a terminal degree in nursing practice and offers an alternative to research-focused doctoral programs. DNP-prepared nurses are well-equipped to fully implement the science developed by nurse researchers prepared in PhD, DNSc, and other research-focused nursing doctorates.

    WHY MOVE TO THE DNP?


    • The changing demands of this nation's complex healthcare environment require the highest level of scientific knowledge and practice expertise to assure quality patient outcomes. The Institute of Medicine, Joint Commission, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and other authorities have called for reconceptualizing educational programs that prepare today’s health professionals.
    • Some of the many factors building momentum for change in nursing education at the graduate level include: the rapid expansion of knowledge underlying practice; increased complexity of patient care; national concerns about the quality of care and patient safety; shortages of nursing personnel which demands a higher level of preparation for leaders who can design and assess care; shortages of doctorally-prepared nursing faculty; and increasing educational expectations for the preparation of other members of the healthcare team.
    • In a 2005 report titled Advancing the Nation's Health Needs: NIH Research Training Programs, the National Academy of Sciences called for nursing to develop a non-research clinical doctorate to prepare expert practitioners who can also serve as clinical faculty. AACN's work to advance the DNP is consistent with this call to action.
    • Nursing is moving in the direction of other health professions in the transition to the DNP. Medicine (MD), Dentistry (DDS), Pharmacy (PharmD), Psychology (PsyD), Physical Therapy (DPT), and Audiology (AudD) all offer practice doctorates." American Association of Colleges of Nursing | DNP Fact Sheet | TEST

    http://www.aana.com/ceandeducation/e..._June_2007.pdf
    Ellen NP and SycamoreGuy like this.
  6. Visit  MrsStudentNurse} profile page
    0
    So now we are left with the decision of pursuing MD or DNP... 3 years (11 semesters) for full time DNP program, $80000 to 5 years ( part time) $75000-105,000 or MD: 4 years unpaid plus 3 paid about 50k and about $100k for tuition... Making double that of a DNP.
  7. Visit  wtbcrna} profile page
    3
    Quote from Carley77
    So now we are left with the decision of pursuing MD or DNP... 3 years (11 semesters) for full time DNP program, $80000 to 5 years ( part time) $75000-105,000 or MD: 4 years unpaid plus 3 paid about 50k and about $100k for tuition... Making double that of a DNP.
    Except most people work full or part-time during their DNP programs. I worked full-time, deployed, and completed a full-time DNAP program in 2 years (post-MSN).
    Medical/DO school with residency/internship is a minimum of 8 years with low pay during internship/residency.
    A CRNAs average pay is more than FP physicians. The average salary for NPs is around 100K which about 2/3 what the average FP physician makes. There just isn't a simple way to compare salaries and loss of incomes when considering DNP/APN or MD.
  8. Visit  BlueDevil, DNP} profile page
    4
    Quote from redlion777
    Wrong. The DNP is intended to help NP's compete with doctors by trying to negate the educational difference between an MD and NP. That's why CRNAs will require a DNP. Slowly all NP's will require a DNP even if its online through a for-profit college.
    The degree you're thinking of that is purely to advance nursing knowledge has been around for along time- it's called a Nursing PhD.
    Wrong. the DNP has nothing to do with negating the difference between MD and NP. It has nothing whatsoever to do with physicians. Your theory is horse manure. The Doctorate of Nursing Practice is designed to educate/prepare expert APN clinicians to disseminate research into practice, provide clinical leadership, teach, and yes, add to nursing knowledge through scholarly reporting.

    PhD prepared nurses will always be relied upon to generate original research and nursing theory. We DNP prepared APNs and CNSs will put that research and theory to practice and discuss it's implications. We work hand in glove. PhD and DNP Nurses are ideal partners for patient care improvement.

    I am a DNP prepared APN, so I am a little better informed on the particulars of my education and practice than you, apparently because in my case it isn't just opinion or theory, it is what I do.
    sadiemae1123, Ellen NP, JRJohnson, and 1 other like this.
  9. Visit  BlueDevil, DNP} profile page
    1
    Quote from wtbcrna
    Except most people work full or part-time during their DNP programs. I worked full-time, deployed, and completed a full-time DNAP program in 2 years (post-MSN).
    Medical/DO school with residency/internship is a minimum of 8 years with low pay during internship/residency.
    A CRNAs average pay is more than FP physicians. The average salary for NPs is around 100K which about 2/3 what the average FP physician makes. There just isn't a simple way to compare salaries and loss of incomes when considering DNP/APN or MD.
    I worked PT (but I've always worked PT, I'm allergic to FT work, lol) and attended school PT and my DNP took 3.5 years. My Capstone was quite involved and it alone took 2 years to implement because it was a statewide project that required approval of the governor, and State Dept. of Health.

    If I worked FT now I'd earn 200K/y in family practice, but my wife and I believe time is more important than money, so we opt to both work PT so I earn proportionately less, accordingly. There is plenty of money to be earned in family prac if one negotiates well, sees the right mix of pts and codes/bills appropriately.
    Ellen NP likes this.
  10. Visit  BlueDevil, DNP} profile page
    5
    Quote from Carley77
    So now we are left with the decision of pursuing MD or DNP... 3 years (11 semesters) for full time DNP program, $80000 to 5 years ( part time) $75000-105,000 or MD: 4 years unpaid plus 3 paid about 50k and about $100k for tuition... Making double that of a DNP.
    Nothing about this is correct, generalizing aside.
    I have never had any student debt of any kind. Even my DNP was free, I was a University Merit Scholar at Duke. I will earn over $180,000 this year.
    The average medical student owes $250-300,000 upon graduation.
    There is no way to compare physician salary to any APN salary. As per my example, different situations are going to work out better for different people.
    However, your little "summary" above is completely nonsensical in just about every instance.
    QuietRiot, Ellen NP, SycamoreGuy, and 2 others like this.
  11. Visit  Ellen NP} profile page
    1
    The DNP is not similar to the MD. You can get a DNP with a leadership or education focus and no advanced clinical training. NP's with DNP's do not have more clinical training than do MSN prepared NP's. Their additional hours are practice hours, not clinical. We all need to be very clear that DNP training is not at all comparable to medical training. Physicians spend thousand's of hours in clinical training and then graduate to another 3-5 years of focused clinical training. NP's are advanced practice nurses who provide skilled care. We need to accept that we are not the same as MD/DO's. Read the work around the development of the DNP. Nowhere does it compare our education to that of physicians.
    Last edit by Ellen NP on Jun 15, '14 : Reason: Typo
    MrsStudentNurse likes this.
  12. Visit  Ellen NP} profile page
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    The DNP was in no way meant to prepare NP's to compete with physicians. Too many people actually believe this and it certainly adds to animosity between prifessions. More clinical training is not even necessarily included. Practice hours spent in development if a process improvement project cannot be compared to clinical training in assessment, diagnosis and treatment of patients.
  13. Visit  MrsStudentNurse} profile page
    0
    Quote from BlueDevil, DNP
    Nothing about this is correct, generalizing aside.
    I have never had any student debt of any kind. Even my DNP was free, I was a University Merit Scholar at Duke. I will earn over $180,000 this year.
    The average medical student owes $250-300,000 upon graduation.
    There is no way to compare physician salary to any APN salary. As per my example, different situations are going to work out better for different people.
    However, your little "summary" above is completely nonsensical in just about every instance.
    Im sorry I should have clarified this is for the state of Minnesota and many schools I've looked at in the Midwest. We are not all university scholar merits so that definitely isn't "the norm" either so yes different situations for different people is right.

    So no my "little summary" is quite sensical in actually many schools across the Midwest. I can list the links if that's what needs to be.
  14. Visit  jaabrn} profile page
    0
    In the southeast MSN/DNP education should not cost $80,000 if you attend a public school. To compare cost of education at UNC which has one of the least expensive MD programs in the country - cost of tuition for MSN per year $7,877.00 and cost of DNP program is ~$27,000 so total tuition may be ~$45,000. Compare this to the MD program with total cost of tuition at $17,537 per year with average student debt ~$100,000.

    I attended a state regional school and my MSN was ~15,000 which I mostly paid for by scholarships and the rest was paid out of pocket allowing me to graduate debt free. The DNP program I plan to attend is also <$15,000 which I will also pay out of pocket.

    Comparing the MD and MSN/DNP is made more difficult when you consider that a student can very easily work full/part time while enrolled in a school of nursing allowing a student to at least cover living expenses that would have to be added to student loans in a medical program. This is in part why the average medical school debt in 2013 was $170,000 (AMA).

    I have thought long and hard about pursuing medical school and may ultimately regret my decision to stay with nursing. However, the ROI would take many years to recoup the significant debt that I would have to incur and the lost wages during training even considering the eventual pay increase.

    I do not think that the DNP should be compared to the MD in either didactics or economics.


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