DNP seems like a waste...

Specialties Doctoral

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Anyone else think the powers that be wasted a great opportunity with the DNP recommended curriculum? I seems to be mainly research focused, with little (if any) advanced clinical knowledge. What's the point? It would have been a wonderful way to increase the anemic clinical hours in NP programs (from 600ish to a more respectable 1500+). Thoughts?

I thought the same thing before I went to graduate school too. I always wanted to be an NP and when I investigated I couldn't see any reason to get a DNP over a Masters to practice. I went to the University of Utah BSN-DNP for a couple reasons; first, it's the one I got accepted to and second, no GRE. During the course of my graduate school 3 other nurses also finished and got their Masters NP. The difference was in the job offers. I had no intention of leaving my small town for work and I had 3 job offers at graduation, in my hometown. One of my colleagues got a job soon after passing boards and moved across the country for it, one waited more than a year for a position, and one still does not have a job. I had twice as many clinical hours as an MSN and that was a huge factor in having options when I graduated. Good Luck in whatever you decide, it's totally worth it to get the DNP, but I'm biased so take it for what it's worth.

Specializes in nursing education.
I fully understand the amount of time required. Not all MD's do residency and many OD's do not. So no residency is not required. Second, every DNP program I've looked at requires 2 years post BSN experience so virtually it's the same minus maybe a year if one does residency.

It is theoretically possible in the most rural of areas, but it is de facto a requirement to have a chance to practice anywhere else for both MDs and DOs.

Specializes in Med/Surg, International Health, Psych.

I agree with previous posters about the DNP being highly political. It definitely is. It is almost as if there are these invisible gatekeeper committees, invisible to me anyway, who sit around and decide the direction of American nursing. In a field that seems plagued with an innate inferiority complex, it is as if these decisions are attempts to keep our profession valued and competitive in an ever-changing healthcare landscape.

With that said, I think the DNP is worth the attempt if you are up to it. In the 8 years I have been a nurse I have seen many lines quickly drawn in the sand. I am a second career nurse. When I was in school, we had the option of getting out with the ADN. In fact, a friend, a LPN, was encouraging me to stop with it since I already had a BA. I forged ahead sensing that a two-year nursing degree would bite me one day. Sure enough when I was on the job market there was a preference, that continues, for BSN nurses.

Now as an APN, I see many CNS' in my specialty losing their hard fought for professional spaces as preference for the NP emerges they are left having to reinvent themselves. I like so many am not impressed by the power of the DNP, however I am going to go forward and persue it. Like I did once before, I just sense this being an issue one day in the far off future.

For those who think DNP is not important, then just don't get it and hopefully you never regret. Am currently in an MSN FNP program, and I have come to appreciate education a lot. At the beginning of the course, I used to wonder why we were enrolled to do some course. But whenever we got into the course contents, I always ended up appreciating how much I had learned. I have come to accept that the since the universities are accredited to offer the course, they know what they are doing. Personally, I would rather be instructed by a doctorally prepared instructor (I pay good money to go to college) because they are obviously more knowledgeable coz they have gone a step further in their education.

When I wanted to pursue my FNP, BSN nurses discouraged me against it saying it was a waste of money. Education and knowledge can never be a waste of money.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
Personally, I would rather be instructed by a doctorally prepared instructor (I pay good money to go to college) because they are obviously more knowledgeable coz they have gone a step further in their education.

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You make excellent points and I agree to some extent about being a lifelong learner although I wanted to add my biggest complaint is that in my experience, and I'm in your geographic region, many of the DNP "educators" especially at the high brow colleges around here have hardly, if ever, actually practiced nursing on any level. As someone who values an adept clinician above all I find that inexcusable. Jmo, though. :)

You make excellent points and I agree to some extent about being a lifelong learner although I wanted to add my biggest complaint is that in my experience, and I'm in your geographic region, many of the DNP "educators" especially at the high brow colleges around here have hardly, if ever, actually practiced nursing on any level. As someone who values an adept clinician above all I find that inexcusable. Jmo, though. :)

Jules, that's absurd. I thought the DNPs are supposed to be practicing? All my instructors in college practice as NPs and most of them own their own clinics. They also double up as Clinical Faculty Advisors (CFAs) for the University, which entails reading all our clinical logs for the patients we see each week and providing feedback, grading clinical assignments and visiting the clinical sites to assess and grade our performance.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.

Yup in fact one told me the DNP didn't offer her an increase in salary so it was more for "personal enrichment". She was only teaching NPs had minimal RN experience and never worked as a NP. One of the major players in this area has a post masters program director who only prescribed for about 3 months, stopped and now just teaches. Crazy, I know. Your school's program sounds like what I would hope for as a student.

Jules that's a sad state of things. Someone like that would never know if my clinical logs are wrong if I say I prescribed ABCD that shouldn't be prescribed. It really shows the difference going to a good school. Am almost done with my FNP at georgetown but it's crazy expensive. I wouldn't change anything though. Due to my huge student loans, I can't afford to stay at GU, but I believe I have a solid foundation to pursue a DNP at a cheaper institution.

Specializes in Emergency.
For those who think DNP is not important, then just don't get it and hopefully you never regret.

I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. This thread is for an open discussion about the merits of the degree, a fairly new degree and how it relates to the direction of the profession. I do believe both of these subjects should be open to an informed discussion where both sides are aloud to express their opinions fully.

No one should attempt to shutdown one side of the discussion, if you don't want to hear how others feel about the degree, that is your choice, you don't have to read it. But they do have the right to express their feelings about the degree and it's perceived shortcomings.

The benefit that comes from having an open dialog like this is we can hopefully be more educated in where our profession is headed and then be a more informed and active member of our profession. I know as I've learned more about the DNP over the past two years my own position on it has evolved and probably will continue to evolve.

I do believe that a practice based doctorate degree could be a good thing for nursing, I'm not sure I think their should be DNP in nursing education or nursing leadership however, I believe that confuses the meaning of what a DNP is.

There is that valid argument that the DNP is just a lame attempt to somehow justify nurses as being smart enough to get a doctorate degree. But alas, nobody gives a rat's behind about that even after you've chumped out all that time and money. Your are still ...a nurse.

Chiros, Audiologists have developed a scheme to call themselves "doctor". The patients don't know they are not and assume they are MDs of some kind. It's too funny.

Nurses who go the DNP route don't want to be called doctor - they don't (excepting the goofy ones, and there are always a few of those to make the fool of us all) Nurses just keep stabbing out in the dark trying to find a way to be taken seriously and to be respected. We haven't found a way to do that so, some just figure that some more "research" and paper writing years (LOL on the research, even MDs LOL on MD research - haha) will garner some kind of respect?!

I don't assume that NP's who pursue either a PhD or a DNP are doing it so that they can have the Dr. title. Anyone who completes a PhD or some other doctoral program does have the title Dr. An MD is a medical doctor or a physician, which an NP will never be unless they go to medical school. So the NP who completes a PhD or a DNP does earn the title Dr. I myself want to complete a DNP program, so that I may be at the top of my field, which most people do who pursue doctoral programs. My wife has a PhD in nutrition from an Ivy league school and her appropriate title is Dr. ******, but she is not a physician. So may people become confused with the Dr. title and they assume that all person with the Dr. title practices in the medical field or they are a physician, which is not the case. So, when I complete my DNP, I will be Dr. K, but I will be functioning as an NP. Anyone who completes a PhD or doctoral program most definitely earns the title of Dr.

Just the other day, I heard the attending at the hospital where I work, which is a Magnet and large academic institution, introduce himself as Dr. ****** to the patient. He also added he was a medical doctor, so that there was no confusion with a pharmacist or physical therapist or NP who also can hold a doctorate and introduce themselves as Dr.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.

Just the other day, I heard the attending at the hospital where I work, which is a Magnet and large academic institution, introduce himself as Dr. ****** to the patient. He also added he was a medical doctor, so that there was no confusion with a pharmacist or physical therapist or NP who also can hold a doctorate and introduce themselves as Dr.

This is where I find it most problematic and I know for a fact that it irritates MDs. The docs I love the best are the ones who are gracious enough to introduce themselves by their first name when dealing with colleagues especially when a 25yo PhD then introduces theirself as "Dr. XYZ".

While I'm all for independent practice rights for NPs I think we can earn respect by our merit and being proficient clinicians not just making a DNP mandatory so we can add more letters behind our names. There is no increase in clinical proficiency which is my biggest complaint. As for anyone and everyone being called Dr. I recently had a student who is in school to become a psychologist tell me "you know just like a psychiatrist but without the medicine part". Really??? :laugh:

Perhaps I should just start using all my available letters? ;)

Jules, LPN, ADN, BSN, MS, CRNP-PMH, FNP. Looks rather ridiculous, and no one knows or cares what all that stuff means.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
This is where I find it most problematic and I know for a fact that it irritates MDs. The docs I love the best are the ones who are gracious enough to introduce themselves by their first name when dealing with colleagues especially when a 25yo PhD then introduces theirself as "Dr. XYZ".

While I'm all for independent practice rights for NPs I think we can earn respect by our merit and being proficient clinicians not just making a DNP mandatory so we can add more letters behind our names. There is no increase in clinical proficiency which is my biggest complaint. As for anyone and everyone being called Dr. I recently had a student who is in school to become a psychologist tell me "you know just like a psychiatrist but without the medicine part". Really??? :laugh:

Perhaps I should just start using all my available letters? ;)

Jules, LPN, ADN, BSN, MS, CRNP-PMH, FNP. Looks rather ridiculous, and no one knows or cares what all that stuff means.

The title is the least important art about it. I introduce myself by my first name (almost) all the time in the clinical setting. In the academic setting it depends. Patients call me doctor all the time because that is more comfortable for them. They don't have any confusion.

As far as "merit", NPs have been demonstrated to produce comparable outcomes in a number of major studies, yet they are still paid less while being held to the same legal standards. The independent practice issue is not about merit. It's about money, money that physicians don't want to lose.

I agree that DNP programs need to be held to an appropriate standard; there is a lot of crap out there. I would not venture to say that DNP doesn't improve clinical outcomes as there has been no major study on this. Actually most of the best clinicians I know have completed their DNPs, so before it gets diluted, outcomes right now are probably better.

From most patients perspective the letters mean nothing. They just want a competent provider they can trust with their care.

Sent from my iPhone.

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