2015 DNP - page 18

I am wondering if anyone has heard any updates. Everything I keep seeing online from the AACN is "recommendation", "strongly encouraged", "highly suggested". I have yet to see anything, that... Read More

  1. Visit  wtbcrna profile page
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    Quote from PMFB-RN


    *** What studies? The studies I have seen, like the Akin study, are highly flawed and biased.



    Did you miss the link with all those studies I posted?
  2. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
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    Quote from wtbcrna
    Did you miss the link with all those studies I posted?
    Hmmm, people with a product to sell have found better outcomes if more nurses purchase their product.
    For a study to be evidence in this argument it would have to compare nurses who entered nursing with diplomas or ADNs REGARDLESS OF THEIR OTHER EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVMENTS with those who entered nursing with BSNs regardless of their other educational achievements. None of the studies you posted do that.
    elkpark likes this.
  3. Visit  wtbcrna profile page
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    Quote from PMFB-RN
    Hmmm, people with a product to sell have found better outcomes if more nurses purchase their product.
    For a study to be evidence in this argument it would have to compare nurses who entered nursing with diplomas or ADNs REGARDLESS OF THEIR OTHER EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVMENTS with those who entered nursing with BSNs regardless of their other educational achievements. None of the studies you posted do that.
    So what you are saying is that you have evaluated the methodologies and came to the conclusion that all these authors just overlooked the fact that some of these nurses used to have their ADNs. Now since you have reviewed each and everyone of these articles methodologies from the articles not the abstracts why don't you paste those methodologies so we can all come to that exact same conclusion that has escaped pretty much every nurse scholar in North America.
    chare likes this.
  4. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
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    So what you are saying is that you have evaluated the methodologies and came to the conclusion that all these authors just overlooked the fact that some of these nurses used to have their ADNs.
    *** No of course not. Why would I when others have done such a good job if it for me? What I am saying is that no study that does not compare out comes of nurses who entered practice as a diploma or ADN to nurses who entered practice as BSNs it's not useful in the BSN as entry to practice debate. They MAY be useful as an argument to require all nurses to earn a BSN (something I might well go for) but that is a different debate than the BSN as entry to practice debate.

    Now since you have reviewed each and everyone of these articles methodologies from the articles not the abstracts why don't you paste those methodologies so we can all come to that exact same conclusion that has escaped pretty much every nurse scholar in North America.
    *** (chuckle, chuckle) You are much too smart and have too many perfectly reasonable and valid arguments to resort putting words in my mouth.
  5. Visit  wtbcrna profile page
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    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** No of course not. Why would I when others have done such a good job if it for me? What I am saying is that no study that does not compare out comes of nurses who entered practice as a diploma or ADN to nurses who entered practice as BSNs it's not useful in the BSN as entry to practice debate. They MAY be useful as an argument to require all nurses to earn a BSN (something I might well go for) but that is a different debate than the BSN as entry to practice debate.



    *** (chuckle, chuckle) You are much too smart and have too many perfectly reasonable and valid arguments to resort putting words in my mouth.
    I am glad you admit to not evaluating any of these articles and have based your statements on ignorance of the research.
  6. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
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    Quote from wtbcrna
    I am glad you admit to not evaluating any of these articles and have based your statements on ignorance of the research.
    *** What a shame. Rather than hold a discussion you resort to again putting words into my mouth. OK, I see how you want to behave. I expected better. You have disappointed me.

    "In a study released in the May 2008 issue of the [COLOR=#003366]Journal of Nursing Administration, Dr. Linda Aiken and her colleagues confirmed the findings from her landmark 2003 study (see below) which show a strong link between RN education level and patient outcomes. Titled “Effects of Hospital Care Environment on Patient Mortality and Nurse Outcomes,” these leading nurse researchers found that every 10% increase in the proportion of BSN nurses on the hospital staff was associated with a 4% decrease in the risk of death. "

    For the purposes of this discussion we can ignore the evaluations of this study that shows the flaws in Dr.Aiken 's methods and take it at face value. It isn't evidence that can be used to support the BSN as entry to practice argument. Dr.Aiken failed to differentiate between nurses who entered nursing practice with a diploma or ADN (and possibly went on to earn BSNs or MSNs or doctorates) and nurses who entered practice with a BSN. Thus is has nothing to tell us about BSN as entry to practice. Assuming we ignore the flaws in the study it may be evidence for something else, like requiring all nurses to earn BSNs. But that is a different topic than BSN as entry to practice.
    Last edit by PMFB-RN on Aug 18, '13
  7. Visit  wtbcrna profile page
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    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** What a shame. Rather than hold a discussion you resort to again putting words into my mouth. OK, I see how you want to behave. I expected better. You have disappointed me.
    No, you try to make points about articles you haven't evaluated and you continue to bring in opinions with no proof. I on the other hand posted peer reviewed articles, expert opinions, and statements from professional organizations. You disappoint from the lack of use of research and then try to make claims that more education does not do anything to improve patient care and more education is nothing but a business/universities trying to make money.
  8. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
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    You disappoint from the lack of use of research and then try to make claims that more education does not do anything to improve patient care and more education is nothing but a business/universities trying to make money.
    *** What!? Sorry but you have mistaken another person's comments for mine. I did not say anything like that. I don't think that is the case so would not voice an opinion contrary to what I believe. I have absolutely no doubt that more (appropriate) education does improve patient care. Exactly why I have been such an advocate of more and better nurse education on this board and in my career. However we haven't been discussing weather or not more education improves patient care.
    I serious believe that you have either confused me with another poster or are engaged in wishful reading.

    No, you try to make points about articles you haven't evaluated and you continue to bring in opinions with no proof. I on the other hand posted peer reviewed articles, expert opinions, and statements from professional organizations.
    *** No you haven't. The peer reviewed articles and expert opinions you posted are off topic and do not concern the subject of BSN as entry to practice. Of course, reading the subject line on this thread reminds me that any discussion of BSN as entry to practice is off topic. My bad.
    Last edit by PMFB-RN on Aug 18, '13
  9. Visit  wtbcrna profile page
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    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** What!? Sorry but you have mistaken another person's comments for mine. I did not say anything like that. I don't think that is the case so would not voice an opinion contrary to what I believe. I have absolutely no doubt that more (appropriate) education does improve patient care. Exactly why I have been such an advocate of more and better nurse education on this board and in my career. However we haven't been discussing weather or not more education improves patient care.
    I serious believe that you have either confused me with another poster or are engaged in wishful reading.

    Nope post 209 on here from you, and you have argued all along that DNP or a BSN would/does not improve patient care or anything else worth while.

    *** No you haven't. The peer reviewed articles and expert opinions you posted are off topic and do not concern the subject of BSN as entry to practice.
    Yes, they actually do. There is almost a whole page of one post that shows research concerning better outcomes with BSN prepared nurses from a link advocating the BSN as entry to practice or at the least to having different levels of nurses based on education levels.

    I think you are missing a couple of posts...
  10. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
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    Nope post 209 on here from you, and you have argued all along that DNP or a BSN would/does not improve patient care or anything else worth while.
    And this:

    You disappoint from the lack of use of research and then try to make claims that more education does not do anything to improve patient care and more education is nothing but a business/universities trying to make money.
    *** You are mixing subjects.


    Quote from wtbcrna
    Yes, they actually do. There is almost a whole page of one post that shows research concerning better outcomes with BSN prepared nurses from a link advocating the BSN as entry to practice or at the least to having different levels of nurses based on education levels.

    I think you are missing a couple of posts...
    *** Any study that doesn't differentiate between nurses who enter practice with an ADN and nurses who enter with a BSN isn't applicable to a discussion about BSN as entry to practice.
    A question. Have you read any of the evaluations of the Aiken study that make a case fro a very flawed study and /or a biased researcher? If not I can find them for you.
  11. Visit  wtbcrna profile page
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    Quote from PMFB-RN
    And this:



    *** You are mixing subjects.




    *** Any study that doesn't differentiate between nurses who enter practice with an ADN and nurses who enter with a BSN isn't applicable to a discussion about BSN as entry to practice.
    A question. Have you read any of the evaluations of the Aiken study that make a case fro a very flawed study and /or a biased researcher? If not I can find them for you.
    Go ahead and post the evaluations, but I made sure those were not the only studies I posted. I think you have made it clear your regards to BSN education and the DNP. Are you not the one that had stated your BSN made your dumber? And even though you expressed no personal knowledge of the DNP you have downplayed its usefulness and equated it to a money making scheme or was the money making scheme only about BSNs.
  12. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
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    Go ahead and post the evaluations, but I made sure those were not the only studies I posted.

    *** Yes I will see if I can find them and post them here, even though the studies you posted are off topic and unrelated to a BSN as entry to practice discussion. BSN as entry to practice, and requiring all RNs to have BSNs are very different things.

    I think you have made it clear your regards to BSN education and the DNP. Are you not the one that had stated your BSN made your dumber?
    *** Yes, the time I spent on it would have been much better spent on education. I missed out on valuable training and education to spend time jumping through the hoops to obtain a BSN. Oh well it was free and I got to do quite a bit of the hoop jumping on paid time. I very much wish I had not done it. If I had it to do over again I would skip the BSN.

    And even though you expressed no personal knowledge of the DNP you have downplayed its usefulness and equated it to a money making scheme or was the money making scheme only about BSNs.
    *** No, it appears to me that the DNP is at least partly about limiting access to the professions. I think certain people making money is partly behind the motivation behind requiring BSN as entry to practice. The evidence I see for that is the unwillingness to simply grandfather in all the diploma and ADNs and make BSN to new standard. I think that could be done very easily relative to requiring all RNs to have BSN.
    I wonder why it is, that if the evidence shows a benefit to patients from having RNs with BSN degrees, the simplest and fastest path to the goal isn't being advocated for? One answer that seems probable to me is that grandfathering in all the ADNs and diploma RNs would deprive so many of all the money to be made if tens of thousands of them return to for profit online schools like U of P.
  13. Visit  prairienp profile page
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    I think there is also confusion when people "assume" all programs use practice hours to meet the 1000 hours. Many programs have 1000 plus clinical hours with another 2-3 hundred practice hours. The intent of the DNP was to have 1000 clinical hours a "clinical doctorate"
    I think you are discussing a MSN/FNP to a DNP versus a BSN to a DNP/FNP. In that case of a MSN/FNP to a DNP they have been in practice for several years, do they need clinical hours, I dont think so. They need practice hours

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