2015 DNP

[BabyLady]

I am wondering if anyone has heard any updates.

Everything I keep seeing online from the AACN is "recommendation", "strongly encouraged", "highly suggested".

I have yet to see anything, that says, "Look, either you graduate and pass your boards by January 1, 2015 or you can put the MSN you have in back of the closet and start working on your DNP, because the MSN isn't good enough anymore to sit for national certification."

There are many of us, including myself, that will be finishing probably in 2013 or 2014...now, we would all like to think that we would pass our certification the first go-round, but we all know that may or may not happen for some of us.

Example: You graduate in June 2014 with your MSN and it is January, 2015, you still cannot pass your certification exam...does that mean you have to go back to school or you cannot practice?

I have seen some colleges that have completely phased out MSN programs but I have seen MANY that have not...that makes me wonder if it is not going to be a "go" like they are claiming that it is.

I would love to hear from those that keep up with this sort of thing...that may have more insight.

[bsnanat2]

The bottom line with the DNP is that it is a back handed way to get more academics, not improve practice. It is an academic wolf in clinical sheep's clothing.

Again, not a bad degree, but certainly not what is needed.

[oldiebutgoodie, RN]

I would be willing to sign up for that program! In addition, I would say add an advanced differential diagnosis course, a course dedicated to the prescribing of controlled substances (since some jurisdictions have a problem with this), a pain management course and an advanced psych course dealing with chemical dependency (re: drug seekers) and a specific course on when and how to make proper referrals. Add it all together and you get a practitioner who can handle most anything and would have the proper insight to protect their practice and their patients. I am not interested in Phd lite or MPH advanced, and that's what the DNP is. It's not bad, but it is not what is needed.

OOOh! Yes! Differential diagnosis! Controlled substance class sounds good, too. Hey! We're on to something! (If only the AACN would listen).

Oldiebutgoodie

[bsnanat2]

But alas, no one will listen because it makes sense. To the powers that be, sensibility and practicality are for fools. Ivory towers for the elite!!

[elkpark]

Unfortunately, those nursing leader pushing the DNP are stating that "Dr. Nurse" is equivalent to "Dr. Doctor". So we certainly need to have some of that material under our belts.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/27/nurses-doctors-practice-oped-cx_mom_1128nurses.html

Oldiebutgoodie

Mundinger and her minions are the only nursing "leaders" promoting the idea that DNPs are the equivalent of (if not superior to!) physicians. She certainly does not speak for the larger nursing leadership community -- this is her own little personal crusade.

(Unfortunately, as the old saying goes, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease -- she and her extreme views end up getting all the publicity ...)

[greygooseuria]

I already took statistics and research as part of my MSN. I guess I don't understand why one would need MORE of it in a DNP. Advanced stats and research would more appropriately belong in a PhD program. The other stuff belongs in an MPH program.

My ideal DNP program would have separate courses (with their associated pharmacology) in:

1. Cardiology (with teaching how to read a 12 lead)

2. Radiology (extensive teaching on reading xrays and CTs/MRIs)

3. Pulmonology

4. Renal

5. Surgery (optional--pick one: general, ortho, etc)

6. Elective (OB-GYn, peds, pain, primary care, etc.)

Just my $.02 worth. I'm sure the AACN will be contacting me soon to ask me to elaborate on these great ideas.

Oldiebutgoodie

PS--Anybody else have great ideas for their ideal DNP program??

This sounds like what is needed at the MASTERS level too!! In my BSN program, we didn't have fluff bull classes, so I don't get why in my MSN we do. I hate that I have literally wasted THOUSANDS of dollars on classes in research methods, communication classes, and policy classes and learned nothing new. No great revelation came from any of those classes. However, having specialty info WOULD be useful. MORE CLINICAL SCIENCE PLEASE. Put those classes in the BSN if they need them so badly.

[Euphrosyne7, MSN, RN]

Hi all:

Just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts. First, I agree that it seems most DNP curriculum seems to be lacking with regards to what would be most beneficial versus theories, research, etc.

That being said, I am now able to understand research/methods as well as able to differentiate between a study that is robust vs. one that looks good but, in fact, isn't. This is actually helpful for practice, but is also not the end all be all in practice either.

One thing that I did enjoy about my MSN program was that besides research, etc., it also included another 30 hrs of advanced pharmacology specific to the track you were in. For me that meant an additional 30 hours in psychopharmacology on top of the 30 of advanced general pharmacology. Differential diagnosis was incorporated into our classes, and we used the same text books that medical schools are using.

While we did have a class on evidence based practice and research, ethics, and informatics, the majority of our other classes were really more medical model based. We didn't have to suffer through nursing theory and we were required to do a total of 640 clinical hours with the exception of the FNPs who had to do more.

I have a friend who attends a local university, and she is studying for her ANP. She has told me that while she feels she is acquiring a good education, it sounds like my program was more stringent and more medically based than hers, and I was in a psychiatric NP track. The ACNPs and FNPs in my class did get classes in xray and diagnostic study interpretation as well as suturing and a plethora of other experiences which I did not as they would most likely not be very useful in psych!

I think the experience/education you receive all depends on what school/program you are in. Currently I am looking to go back for my DNP but I don't want just a "general" degree. I am hoping to find a good program which specializes in Family psych and which is based more on clinical/medical rather than theory and management which would be the most useful in real life practice. Most university's seem to have a curriculum that contains yet more research/statistics, and other courses that would seem to be more pertinent to a phd rather than a "doctor of nursing practice". It is pretty frustrating.

Thanks for reading,

Carla

[bsnanat2]

Carla,

Your program sounds great. I don't want to give the impression that I'm against research and all "fluff" classes, just why repeat and advance them in a DNP when that is not what is needed. I've gotten great benefit from my BSN research and stats courses in being able to differentiate between a good study and a bad one, so they do have merit. The vast inconsistency in DNP curriculums and the fact that most are laden(?) with research and academic courses reflects the fact that "nursing leadership" itself is full of academics. The ANA and other powers that be should have consulted with the laymen (and even physicians) to see what was really needed. If they promote their kind and increase their numbers it gives validity to their point of view.

[CCRNDiva, BSN, RN]

Carla, I agree your program sounds great! Would you mind sharing where you completed your program?

[Euphrosyne7, MSN, RN]

Hi:

I attended Drexel University in PA. I am hearing that it is now very competitive to get into.........they are receiving over 400 applicants per each new class that starts.............and the curriculum is only offered at certain times throughout the year.....So once a year the 1st clinical rotation begins and you are unable to start again until the following year.

Carla

Carla

[ktliz]

I already took statistics and research as part of my MSN. I guess I don't understand why one would need MORE of it in a DNP. Advanced stats and research would more appropriately belong in a PhD program. The other stuff belongs in an MPH program.

My ideal DNP program would have separate courses (with their associated pharmacology) in:

1. Cardiology (with teaching how to read a 12 lead)

2. Radiology (extensive teaching on reading xrays and CTs/MRIs)

3. Pulmonology

4. Renal

5. Surgery (optional--pick one: general, ortho, etc)

6. Elective (OB-GYn, peds, pain, primary care, etc.)

Just my $.02 worth. I'm sure the AACN will be contacting me soon to ask me to elaborate on these great ideas.

Oldiebutgoodie

PS--Anybody else have great ideas for their ideal DNP program??

This sounds great, but I'm wondering.... who would we get to TEACH these classes? There is already a real shortage of nursing instructors (unlike the imaginary shortage of RNs), and finding instructors with the advanced knowledge to teach these courses would be even more difficult. The next logical solution would be having MDs teach in the DNP programs, but I don't even want to begin to think about the political implications there...

[Caroline32669]

After reading through many of these discussions, I am surprised at how many are so dead set against the DNP! I am currently studying for my DNP. I searched for a program that would meet my expectations, i.e. clinically based and backed with evidence obtained through research. My program has set residencies that you can choose from. I have learned more in this program than ever.

If a program offers too much "fluff", then by all means don't attend that program. However, anyone who advances their clinical expertise as well as their education is going to have an improved knowledge base and therefore, more information to draw upon when treating patients. MSN prepared NPs will still provide excellent care, but they will have to draw much more upon their own resources.

The other plus of DNP, is hopefully NPs will get full reimbursement as I think this is the bigger push behind the DNP. Why should a physician get paid more for suturing a laceration than an NP? Does the MD do better stitches? No. He/she simply has the MD initials. I work in a rural ED where there are no doctors. Because we are also a hand surgery center, many physicians send patients to me because they are not comfortable with hands. Yet I get less reimbursement because I am an NP. Sigh.

Sorry for the long post. I think NPs deserve respect and recognition for all they do.

[bsnanat2]

After reading through many of these discussions, I am surprised at how many are so dead set against the DNP! I am currently studying for my DNP. I searched for a program that would meet my expectations, i.e. clinically based and backed with evidence obtained through research. My program has set residencies that you can choose from. I have learned more in this program than ever.

If a program offers too much "fluff", then by all means don't attend that program. However, anyone who advances their clinical expertise as well as their education is going to have an improved knowledge base and therefore, more information to draw upon when treating patients. MSN prepared NPs will still provide excellent care, but they will have to draw much more upon their own resources.

The other plus of DNP, is hopefully NPs will get full reimbursement as I think this is the bigger push behind the DNP. Why should a physician get paid more for suturing a laceration than an NP? Does the MD do better stitches? No. He/she simply has the MD initials. I work in a rural ED where there are no doctors. Because we are also a hand surgery center, many physicians send patients to me because they are not comfortable with hands. Yet I get less reimbursement because I am an NP. Sigh.

Sorry for the long post. I think NPs deserve respect and recognition for all they do.

I agree with much of what you have said, but just don't know that the DNP in its present incarnation is the best way to accomplish this. I am sure the degree provides benefits (like all advanced degrees), but is it what Advanced Practice needs right now? I would love to see the DNP follow some of the ideas in this thread, but that doesn't mean I'm a "hater". I believe it has value but do not believe it to be equal to an MD.