Nurses fired for refusing flu vaccine

olddragger · Jan 9, 2013

"Sooo, flu vaccination of caregivers reduces health care costs by reducing complications in vulnerable patients?

If so then it does seem like a reasonable expectation to have nurses take the flu vaccine."

The trouble with this is that the influenza vaccination effectiveness is questionable. By all information that I can gather it is at BEST only 60% effective overall. Also remember that it is only designed to protect agaisnt 3 viruses that the CDC guess will be the ones that are prevalent this season. There are over 200 different viruses that can cause influenza. Its a gamble.

I have no problem with the influenza vaccination per se-- i do have a problem with business's and government when they start mandating yearly ineffective vaccinations. A thought...if it was effective then they would not have to mandate it would they?

Visitor control and proper infection disease precautions will go further to reduce "possible" nosocomical infections than staff vaccinations in an acute care facility. But--those types of things are not popular with hospital administrations. Visitor control ( both is visiting and visitors being made to do proper infection control) and staff infection control cost the hospital bad public relations and money. How does it cost the hospital money--because proper isolation/infection control measures and lower patient to nurse ratios cost more.

That type of approach would also reduce the amount of MRSA, HIV, pneumococcal pneumonia ( and THAT may be coming as the next mandatory vaccination!) and various other infections we are so familiar with.

CrunchRN, ADN, RN · Jan 9, 2013

Oldragger - I have read that also. My point really is that if this is true and it does not save CMS money then again, what is their motivation or are they just totally misinformed?

CMS is behind it so I think we should leave hospitals et al out of it because we know their motivation is always money.

olddragger · Jan 10, 2013

CrunchRN--have you ever seen a governmental program that saves money? Yes, statistics can be made to say just about whatever you want them to say, but in reality I have never seen one--unless something was eliminated--lol!

But, you miss the point and perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. I will try to explain my thoughts a little better.

CMS did not make the shots mandatory. CMS stated that 90% of an acute care facility hcws must have had the influenza vaccination by the year ( I believe) 2015 in order to meet the their quality standard. Hospitals also have to report yearly the percentages of their staff's vaccination AND the reasons some didnt get it.

Hospitals chose to make it mandatory. That is the easiest way of accomplishing that required goal. Voluntary programs do work but they also require more effort and money on the hospitals part. So which one do you think they will choose? Right-make it mandatory. Hospitals are the focus IMHO.

I do believe that CMS has been feed misinformation from the CDC. For example the 36,000 deaths per year that is quoted a lot came from averaging over a period of years in the 90's. Thats right---- 20 years ago. There is a LOT of misinformation going around concerning the Influenza vaccination.

One of my main concerns in this is mandatory vaccination sets a precedent. Once a precedent is set that opens the door for other "money saving mandatory" policys.

The influenza vaccination is different from other vaccinations as it is very limited and it is never ending. I personally do not think it deserves the title of vaccination. I think by calling it a flu shot is misleading in itself. Yes, it can possibily protect a person agaisnt 3 different type of virus's that can cause the flu for a limited period of time. But there are hunderds of different virus's than can cause the flu or influenza like illness (ILI) and it does nothing toward the remaining.

CrunchRN, ADN, RN · Jan 10, 2013

I agree that the precedent set is worrisome. I am just not sure we have gotten down to the true motivation. I can tolerate the lack of free choice if it really does save lives/health care dollars. Benefit vs. risk.

If that is not the case then I still would really like to know what is the motivation behind it?

Hospitals saving money on sick time? If that is the case it would seem to be that it must be effective.

I am the cynical type deep down.

Garethaus · Jan 11, 2013

The only vaccines containing aluminum in current use at the variates of DTaP and HiB, both of which provide immunity to fatal communicable diseases.

Ok.......I've been checking MSDS. What Australian / New Zealand kids recieve.

Aluminium is present in the Hep B, Hep A vaccines.

Aluminium is present in some pneumococcal vaccines like Prevnar 13

And given the frequency in which these are given to children at an early stage in their lives, is quite frankly frightening.

How can I recommend any vaccines which have this crap in them? For the good of the children? Rubbish.

allnurses Guide · Jan 11, 2013

How can I recommend any vaccines which have this crap in them? For the good of the children? Rubbish.

It sounds like you have a bit of research to do on vaccines, both the good and the bad. You are very early in your nursing/medical education an you will learn that often there are no ideal solutions to a problem. You need to weigh the benefits and the risks and formulate your plan as best you can. It sounds like you have googled the potential risks of vaccines. Have you googled the benefits? Take a look at the M&M data of infectious diseases in the pediatric population in the past century or in the US vs other countries. Does it also paint a compelling picture?

HM-8404, BSN, RN · Jan 11, 2013

I wonder how many people that are against gov't mandated flu shots think Obamacare is a good idea? I am interested to see how big of a hand the gov't will eventually have in health care due to this law. All to save costs of course.

Garethaus · Jan 12, 2013

It sounds like you have a bit of research to do on vaccines, both the good and the bad. You are very early in your nursing/medical education an you will learn that often there are no ideal solutions to a problem. You need to weigh the benefits and the risks and formulate your plan as best you can. It sounds like you have googled the potential risks of vaccines. Have you googled the benefits? Take a look at the M&M data of infectious diseases in the pediatric population in the past century or in the US vs other countries. Does it also paint a compelling picture?

BostonFNP,

how can I justify any so-called good of vaccines if I recall the caveat of First Do No Harm? How can anybody seriously believe injecting Thimerosal, aluminium, proteins, etc into children has no effect? It defies logic.

I've been balanced examining the so-called good of vaccines. This morning I was researching the Polio vaccine. What I'm finding out is not good. Evidence indicates quite clearly the Polio vaccines historically were responsible for the rise in Polio cases.

And thats still continuing today. Countries giving their child polio vaccines are responsible for polio outbreaks. 47, 500 cases of Polio paralysis? Hiding Vaccine-Induced Polio In India Hiding Vaccine-Induced Polio In India | Food Freedom News

And the liar media is saying countries like India are polio free? Bah!

nurseprnRN, BSN, RN · Jan 12, 2013

BostonFNP,
how can I justify any so-called good of vaccines if I recall the caveat of First Do No Harm? How can anybody seriously believe injecting Thimerosal, aluminium, proteins, etc into children has no effect? It defies logic.
I've been balanced examining the so-called good of vaccines. This morning I was researching the Polio vaccine. What I'm finding out is not good. Evidence indicates quite clearly the Polio vaccines historically were responsible for the rise in Polio cases.
And thats still continuing today. Countries giving their child polio vaccines are responsible for polio outbreaks. 47, 500 cases of Polio paralysis? Hiding Vaccine-Induced Polio In India Hiding Vaccine-Induced Polio In India | Food Freedom News
And the liar media is saying countries like India are polio free? Bah!

Thimerosol hasn't been in vaccines for donkey's years. And the decades that it was didn't seem to result in the epidemic of whatever you think it causes anyway (50s, 60s, 70s 80s....) Single dose vaccines have no preservatives in them at all-- you can go to the CDC site and see that.

Aluminum is in vaccines because it potentiates their antibody-forming effects. If a child has every vaccine in the series, s/he will receive approximately one quarter of the amount found in .... breast milk. If you take a single dose of Maalox, which is -- wait for it, aluminum hydroxide!--- that's over a thousand times the amount of aluminum in all vaccines put together. Aluminum is a naturally-occurring substance in food. You can find more at the CDC vaccine FAQs page. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

Proteins? Oh, heavens. When a person takes in any infective agent, viral or bacterial, proteins get involved. This hysteria has to be informed by actual science. Google "CDC vaccine additives" and see what you find.

And of course, the number of new polio cases in the 300-million-person US, where polio vaccination manufacture is well-controlled and vaccination is almost universal, is ... close to none. The India article is full of nonsequiturs as related to US vaccination programs.

olddragger · Jan 12, 2013

this is an influenza thread?

here is some latest info about thimerosol ( which can be in the influenza vaccination that is recommended yearly):

This is just for your information--form your own conclusions: Remember there are different types of mercury.

Brain concentrations of total mercury were approximately 3–4 times lower in the thimerosal group than in the methylmercury group, and total mercury cleared more rapidly in the thimerosal group (with a half-life of 24.2 days versus 59.5 days). However, the proportion of inorganic mercury in the brain was much higher in the thimerosal group (21–86% of total mercury) compared to the methylmercury group (6–10%). Brain concentrations of inorganic mercury were approximately twice as high in the thimerosal group compared to the methylmercury group. Inorganic mercury remains in the brain much longer than organic mercury, with an estimated half-life of more than a year. It’s not currently known whether inorganic mercury presents any risk to the developing brain.Given these findings, the researchers caution that risk assessments for thimerosal based on studies using blood mercury measurements may not be valid, depending on the design of the study. Further, the observed differences in distribution and breakdown of mercury compounds between exposed groups indicate that methylmercury is not a suitable model for thimerosal toxicity

This was from a study available through .National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health done in 2005.

Personally i am not sure of any damage done from the flu shot--but findings are interesting. Risk versus benefit should be a personnel decision for this vaccine..

morte, LPN, LVN · Jan 12, 2013

Green! You are comparing apples to oranges! You can not compare oral intake to injection!

Thimerosol hasn't been in vaccines for donkey's years. And the decades that it was didn't seem to result in the epidemic of whatever you think it causes anyway (50s, 60s, 70s 80s....) Single dose vaccines have no preservatives in them at all-- you can go to the CDC site and see that.

Aluminum is in vaccines because it potentiates their antibody-forming effects. If a child has every vaccine in the series, s/he will receive approximately one quarter of the amount found in .... breast milk. If you take a single dose of Maalox, which is -- wait for it, aluminum hydroxide!--- that's over a thousand times the amount of aluminum in all vaccines put together. Aluminum is a naturally-occurring substance in food. You can find more at the CDC vaccine FAQs page. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

Proteins? Oh, heavens. When a person takes in any infective agent, viral or bacterial, proteins get involved. This hysteria has to be informed by actual science. Google "CDC vaccine additives" and see what you find.

And of course, the number of new polio cases in the 300-million-person US, where polio vaccination manufacture is well-controlled and vaccination is almost universal, is ... close to none. The India article is full of nonsequiturs as related to US vaccination programs.

Garethaus · Jan 13, 2013

Green! You are comparing apples to oranges! You can not compare oral intake to injection!

That's because she is grasping at straws.

The more educated in Sydney are starting to vote with their feet re: vaccinations for their child and I have to say I am one of them.