Top 10 Reasons Against Unions - pg.15 | allnurses

Top 10 Reasons Against Unions - page 15

top ten reasons why we don't want a union 10. the union doesn't write my paycheck. 9. unions would rather cause problems than work together. 8. union scale means the best workers are... Read More

  1. Visit  DoloresMaryHart profile page
    6
    Not to offend but I ardently disagree with your assertions and I know you are speaking out od fear and ignorance. Here is why:

    1. the union doesn't write my paycheck.
    No, they don't, they fight for your right to make a decent pay check, not be laid off when execs want to slash the budget an make you responsible for 14 patients instead of 7 ( this may not be the case of some RN's, but for others it is). Unions protect your pension and make sure you are not treated like a dog by drawing attention to the meaningful work that all nurses do.

    9. unions would rather cause problems than work together.
    Saying that unions "cause problems" is a blanket statement that only means that you are to cowardly to value yourself and your craft enough to ensure that in the future (perhaps you have a difficult time with anything that is not now), patients survival rates will increase when union demand that Foreign nurses do not take our jobs and work as scabs, an that a reasonable ratio of nurses to patients is LAW not treating patients like fast food patties, and becoming pegged as a rude B***h, and possibly brought up on criminal neglect charges, because you are so over whelmed. That, is what Unions lobby for, which you call making trouble. TBH I find most of your post defeatist and sycophantic at the same time.

    8. union scale means the best workers are carrying the worst.
    This is total BS and I'm sure you count your self as a BEST which is rubbish. We all went through nursing school and did clinicals and passed NCLEX; So who exactly are you judging as inferior if all of these accomplishments have been met? If you see an other nurse who needs help learning something new and you can help why wouldn't you. What you are saying shows a huge lapse in moral character and aids no one, with exception to your asinine ego. Drop it already. I am assuming you are referring to new RN's so lets be less cliche and NOT rat our young. You have a really bad attitude and entitlement issues. I don't believe and nurses will prosper if they are anything like you which a good 30% are sad to say.

    7. the people who want a union really need one.
    If they need some thing why begrudge them of it. Honestly All nurses need a union including you because nothing is going to get better and if you think you are okay today, your assumption that later will be different is a very shortsighted and wrong attitude.
    Are you saying abused nurses should have no way of attempting to better their situations? Why can't they have one and why can't your support and advocacy unless it gives you a sense of superiority to look down at other nurses which I sense is exactly the attitude in play here.

    6. too corrupt.

    Another BS assertion. Unions have been working for 100 years and because members of the trade are so closely involved that Corruption is easily checked simply by creating a union frame work modeled after a union that has been successful, Yet Again I'm dealing with a defeatist, who has already lost the battle and the war and likes it that way.

    5. too political, too liberal and too partisan.
    Really? This blows my mind, and again reverts to the defeatist attitude. Having a functional non insane workplace where the nurses are well educated, do not false chart, have a manageable patient load (and no, I don't give a crap if you are speed lightning and have taken care of twenty patients single handedly, b/c what you are doing is putting your ego before the big picture: EVERY patients health under your care. Or do you care? Politics is everywhere and if you want change things the rules must change, Even if you think the party in power isn't your favorite. Grow up already and realize only meeting constructive goals matters which mean SPEAKING UP about what is wrong with the system and figuring out how to fix it.

    4. unions are only about power and money for the ones who run the union.

    More ********. Wall Street took your money and ran, not a union. Yes the people doing the most time consuming work will be paid more but even then the workers say moves the union and nothing else which is why it is your best bet at fair treatment in a deteriorated workplace.

    3. unions are negative about everything but how great they are.
    I'm not sure what union left you with that chip on your shoulder but i'm simple going to tell you that you are wrong.

    2. i like to work steady.

    I'll bet, because you have no imagination or vision whatsoever and taking time out to assert that nurses demands are valid and we have been legally overlooked, while even worker in department stores take a mandatory hour long break with 15min/4hr. If you wanted you could do jumping jack on that time, but as for you getting bored and not allowing others to fight for better pay and working conditions is just darn selfish, and you know it. Working steady isn't an option for per diem RN or Homehealth nurses who are used and have NO benifits.

    1. I've got too much self respect.
    Sorry princess but all you have is pigheaded pride. So, not standing up to assure that Americans have first pick at all American jobs in nursing jobs, instead of foreign scabs who work for nothing and cheapen our trade. aren't brought in, Ensuring the wages made match the increase in cost of living, and that the nurse patient ratio is satisfactory to ensure less mistakes are make. That EVERY nurse has the option of either 8 or 12 hour shifts with OSHA mandated breaks and a competent nurser to assure that the patients are looked after while other RN's are on break. I'm going to tell you what you really have and it is not self respect, it is denial, delusion and arrogance. Period.

    I know I'll get flamed for this but so many like minded nurses who think if it isn't their problem the do not have to show concern. Many nurses think in this ass-backwards way and then wonder why we have chronic back problems, Jobs go to people who barely speak English, an new grads in America have 43% unemployment & after 6months past passing Nclex are still jobless. But this 'person' couldn't care, because she's fine with the statuesque. Screw patients and burned out over worked RNs.

    The American middle class is dying, but the only people fighting that I've seen are the unions, who preserve workers rights and I don't even think this person is a nurse. I think a troll or propaganda con, or just an older b***h with a cushy life, would couldn't give a ...
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Sep 22, '13 : Reason: spacing
    healthyglo, Tao2200, sneeds, and 3 others like this.
  2. Visit  DoloresMaryHart profile page
    0
    I said the same thing.
  3. Visit  JackSmythe profile page
    4
    That's the way.....insult those with whom you disagree. Not everyone is on the "union train" so to say. The OP is a nurse, an advanced practice rn. Not everybody has to agree but lets be civil about it. Thanks
    MatrixRn, feltshapes, kcochrane, and 1 other like this.
  4. Visit  sneeds profile page
    2
    I thought it was very civil and enlightening. Not everyone is going through a wonderful experience right now and it's causing some heat only because it has been happening for a long time. So if it helps, please excuse the frustration of it all. One may argue that statement of OP was insensitive and inflammatory too in light on current situations for some RNs and some APRN's.
    healthyglo and Tao2200 like this.
  5. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    2
    Quote from DoloresMaryHart
    Not to offend but I ardently disagree with your assertions and I know you are speaking out od fear and ignorance. Here is why:

    1. the union doesn't write my paycheck.
    No, they don't, they fight for your right to make a decent pay check, not be laid off when execs want to slash the budget an make you responsible for 14 patients instead of 7 ( this may not be the case of some RN's, but for others it is). Unions protect your pension and make sure you are not treated like a dog by drawing attention to the meaningful work that all nurses do.

    9. unions would rather cause problems than work together.
    Saying that unions "cause problems" is a blanket statement that only means that you are to cowardly to value yourself and your craft enough to ensure that in the future (perhaps you have a difficult time with anything that is not now), patients survival rates will increase when union demand that Foreign nurses do not take our jobs and work as scabs, an that a reasonable ratio of nurses to patients is LAW not treating patients like fast food patties, and becoming pegged as a rude B***h, and possibly brought up on criminal neglect charges, because you are so over whelmed. That, is what Unions lobby for, which you call making trouble. TBH I find most of your post defeatist and sycophantic at the same time.

    8. union scale means the best workers are carrying the worst.
    This is total BS and I'm sure you count your self as a BEST which is rubbish. We all went through nursing school and did clinicals and passed NCLEX; So who exactly are you judging as inferior if all of these accomplishments have been met? If you see an other nurse who needs help learning something new and you can help why wouldn't you. What you are saying shows a huge lapse in moral character and aids no one, with exception to your asinine ego. Drop it already. I am assuming you are referring to new RN's so lets be less cliche and NOT rat our young. You have a really bad attitude and entitlement issues. I don't believe and nurses will prosper if they are anything like you which a good 30% are sad to say.

    7. the people who want a union really need one.
    If they need some thing why begrudge them of it. Honestly All nurses need a union including you because nothing is going to get better and if you think you are okay today, your assumption that later will be different is a very shortsighted and wrong attitude.
    Are you saying abused nurses should have no way of attempting to better their situations? Why can't they have one and why can't your support and advocacy unless it gives you a sense of superiority to look down at other nurses which I sense is exactly the attitude in play here.

    6. too corrupt.
    Another BS assertion. Unions have been working for 100 years and because members of the trade are so closely involved that Corruption is easily checked simply by creating a union frame work modeled after a union that has been successful, Yet Again I'm dealing with a defeatist, who has already lost the battle and the war and likes it that way.

    5. too political, too liberal and too partisan.
    Really? This blows my mind, and again reverts to the defeatist attitude. Having a functional non insane workplace where the nurses are well educated, do not false chart, have a manageable patient load (and no, I don't give a crap if you are speed lightning and have taken care of twenty patients single handedly, b/c what you are doing is putting your ego before the big picture: EVERY patients health under your care. Or do you care? Politics is everywhere and if you want change things the rules must change, Even if you think the party in power isn't your favorite. Grow up already and realize only meeting constructive goals matters which mean SPEAKING UP about what is wrong with the system and figuring out how to fix it.

    4. unions are only about power and money for the ones who run the union.
    More ********. Wall Street took your money and ran, not a union. Yes the people doing the most time consuming work will be paid more but even then the workers say moves the union and nothing else which is why it is your best bet at fair treatment in a deteriorated workplace.

    3. unions are negative about everything but how great they are.
    I'm not sure what union left you with that chip on your shoulder but i'm simple going to tell you that you are wrong.

    2. i like to work steady.
    I'll bet, because you have no imagination or vision whatsoever and taking time out to assert that nurses demands are valid and we have been legally overlooked, while even worker in department stores take a mandatory hour long break with 15min/4hr. If you wanted you could do jumping jack on that time, but as for you getting bored and not allowing others to fight for better pay and working conditions is just darn selfish, and you know it. Working steady isn't an option for per diem RN or Homehealth nurses who are used and have NO benifits.

    1. I've got too much self respect.
    Sorry princess but all you have is pigheaded pride. So, not standing up to assure that Americans have first pick at all American jobs in nursing jobs, instead of foreign scabs who work for nothing and cheapen our trade. aren't brought in, Ensuring the wages made match the increase in cost of living, and that the nurse patient ratio is satisfactory to ensure less mistakes are make. That EVERY nurse has the option of either 8 or 12 hour shifts with OSHA mandated breaks and a competent nurser to assure that the patients are looked after while other RN's are on break. I'm going to tell you what you really have and it is not self respect, it is denial, delusion and arrogance. Period.

    I know I'll get flamed for this but so many like minded nurses who think if it isn't their problem the do not have to show concern. Many nurses think in this ass-backwards way and then wonder why we have chronic back problems, Jobs go to people who barely speak English, an new grads in America have 43% unemployment & after 6months past passing Nclex are still jobless. But this 'person' couldn't care, because she's fine with the statuesque. Screw patients and burned out over worked RNs.

    The American middle class is dying, but the only people fighting that I've seen are the unions, who preserve workers rights and I don't even think this person is a nurse. I think a troll or propaganda con, or just an older b***h with a cushy life, would couldn't give a ...
    Whoot!!! !!! All THIS good stuff!!!^^^^
    lindarn and MassED like this.
  6. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    2
    Quote from JackSmythe
    That's the way.....insult those with whom you disagree. Not everyone is on the "union train" so to say. The OP is a nurse, an advanced practice rn. Not everybody has to agree but lets be civil about it. Thanks
    Umm...DeloresMaryHart DID say "not to offend"...

    Sounds civil enough to me....
    Last edit by LadyFree28 on Sep 22, '13
    healthyglo and lindarn like this.
  7. Visit  Not_A_Hat_Person profile page
    0
    There's a great Australian phrase, "Everything before the 'but' is crap."

    Unions have an image problem, and it's largely self-inflicted. Most anti-union arguments I've heard have come from union members.
  8. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    2
    Quote from Not_A_Hat_Person
    There's a great Australian phrase, "Everything before the 'but' is crap."

    Unions have an image problem, and it's largely self-inflicted. Most anti-union arguments I've heard have come from union members.
    Really...wow...that's pretty self depreciating for those who are anti-union union members

    For those who are anti-union, what's the solution then to rebuilding adequate nursing working conditions??? The ANA?? State Nursing Groups???

    I'm curious for those who are saying "unions are not the answer".,.then what IS??? Cause what's going on in Tennessee and Florida will be tried or is happening in other states and facilities, and THAT is not good for ANYONE.
    healthyglo and herring_RN like this.
  9. Visit  lindarn profile page
    4
    I completely agree. The anti union folks say the same thing- unions are not the answer. Than what is? Give me an example of what would work, not only in nursing, but for workers all over.

    I will give an example of something that happened to my family. My father and uncle, worked for the Post Office after they came home from WWII.

    The Postal workers were poorly paid, had terrible benefits, issues with harrassment from supervisors.

    At some point they unionized. But the union was not taken seriously, pay and benefits stagnated compared to other Federal Workers, the union negotiated contracts every two years, but nothing ever changed.

    As the workforce got more and more jaded about condition, etc, they began to pressure the union to do more, and be more aggressive when negotiating new contracts. They began to talk strike. No one had ever gone on strike from the Post Office, even though other Federal workers had gone on strike to achieve better pay and benefits.

    The Union drew a line in the sand, and stated that if their demands were not met, the enire Post Office would go on strike. No one in management took them serioulsy, or believed that they would.

    In March of 1970, the ENTIRE POST OFFICE FROM COAST TO COAST WENT ON STRIKE, IN ALL STATES, AND I BELIEVE ALASKA AND HAWAII!!

    The strike lasted three days. That is all it took for the Post Office to bring this country to its knees!

    The postal workers gained large pay increases, improved benefits, and working conditions, and took control over their jobs.

    We could do the same thing. They did it in Canada in the 70s, went on strike for weeks. Hospitals closed wings, surgeries were cancelled, etc. But they did not give in, even when the union was fined thousand of dollars, they remained on strike. They finally got what they wanted by remaining strong.

    What would it take to get the, "martry marys", of nursing to realize that being nice does not get you anything. The only thing that big business understands is power. As long as nurses come off as weak, we will get nothing.

    Until we take control of our profession, we will continue to see our professional practice sold to the highest bidder, and de professionized as HS dropouts are given our professional practice

    I spite of fiscal problems in communities, no one is suggesting that teachers be replaced by unskilled workers, are they? And no one ever died because they could not do long division or diagram a sentence. But we know that patients all over are being injured because they had a nurse who had too many patients to care for. THAT is the point we need to make to the public. THEY are being harmed because nursing is stretched too thin.

    It is not a case of not enough nurses. It is a case that hospitals do not want to staff properely to ensure safe care for the patients who are paying to receive professional nursing services. Proper staffing with patient ratios, is the Holy Grail of Nursing.

    Until nurses DEMAND that our professional services be billed separately. Instead of being rolled in with the housekeeping, laundry, and the complimentary roll of toilet paper, our professional services will remain invisible to the public, and the CEOs.

    We need to make our services visible so we can counter claims that we bring in no income to the hospital.

    I think that we should just start doing it ourselves. Every day, at the end of your shift, fill out a patient charge form. Write down, "Nursing Professional Services Rendered- twelve hours/$30.00/hr-$360.00." And submit it. When the hospital questions it, explain that patients need to know that their professional services are not free, they cost money. The need to see how much nursings professional services are worth. Maybe when the public sees that we are not worthless, we will have more worth to them.

    As long as they are led to believe that our services are worthless, they will not appreciate what we do for them.

    Here is a poem that I learned years ago, and sums up nursing-

    "WE THE WILLING, LET BY THE UNKNOWING, ARE DOING THE IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE UNGRATEFUL. WE HAVE WORKED SO LONG WITH SO LITTLE, THAT WE ARE NOW QUALIFIED TO DO ANYTHING WITH NOTHING"

    JMHO and my NY $0.02
    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN (ret)
    Somewhere in the PACNW
    Last edit by lindarn on Sep 23, '13
    HazelLPN, sneeds, healthyglo, and 1 other like this.
  10. Visit  CraigB-RN profile page
    1
    I'm one of those "union" people who speak out against unions.

    The concept of a union is a noble one. No argument there. But just like our government ceasing to serve the people and becoming an end unto itself, unions turn into an organization that is about the union and not the people it represents.

    This unfortunately is the basis of human nature and organizations.

    I've been involved in 3 different unions over the past 35 years. Each one turned out bad. I LOST money, lost a job because of the strike the contract with the county was pulled, and I've had incompetent co workers keep working because it was to hard to fire them, due to the union rules.

    The union is seen as a magic wand that will fix all the problems, without causing any hardship. It's taken us decades to get to the point we are at now, it's not going to be fixed overnight. Union negotiations are a compromise. If you want more $, you're going to get less people. If you want more people, your going to get less money.

    What is the answer? Nothing easy, it may be union, I don't know. But the issue isn't really the local hospital. It's a cultural problem that goes right to the top of our political system and our nursing culture.

    We need to start with ourselves. Get rid of the cut "nurse" stuff. Start acting like a professional and demand that every one treats us as professional. This has to be done from the newest grad to the most senior nurse in the organization. One by one. It's a simplification but read the book "From Silence To Voices"

    Get out and start speaking to service organizations. Tell them what a nurse is. Write to your representative. Tell anyone who will listen.

    Union becomes about emotion and becomes self serving. Just look at Hostess. One union "Stood" it's ground. Now no Hostess and other unions lost work also.
    Woodenpug likes this.
  11. Visit  lindarn profile page
    3
    The main problem with your arguement, is that, doing what you suggest, "Start acting like a professional and demand that every one treats us as professional", will get a nurse fired if there is no union to protect him/her. THAT IS THE POINT OF NURSES BELONGING TO UNIONS!!

    It is PROTECTION FIRST, pay and benefits are second. With no union contract, most nurses work in, "at will", states, if not, "Right to Work" (for less), states.

    WHAT is your CONCRETE suggestion for nurses to protect themselves?

    Yes, the, "martry mary" mentality needs to go. That starts with nursing school.

    One of the main reason that I support a BSN as entry into practice, is that, there are alot of classes that can be added to the nursing program, that there is not enough time in ADN or Diploma programs to include them. I call them, "quality of life", classes.

    EMPLOYMENT LAW, ADMINISTRATIVE LAW, INSURANCE LAW, HOW TO START A BUSINESS (yes, PTs, OT, take these classes as part of their curriculum. Why not nurses?

    If nurses new the law, concerning Employment, they would possess the necessary tools to combat many of the workplace abuses that nurses endure. They just do not know the law, and that is where many of us are taking advantage of in the workplace.

    There are good unions. NNOC being the best. Contrary to your statements, NNOC earned staffing ratios for nurses in California. NNOC hospitals adverted a workplace action in California, when the hospital was refusing to negotiate with the union, (I don't remember what), and the unions in several hospital in the same chain were going to go on strike with the other hospitals.

    When faced with concerted action by the union, the hospital backed down. THAT is the power of the unions. You are right, that there are too many unions, who are, as we say in Brooklyn, about as useful as tits on on bull. They are too weak.

    Much of that comes from not presenting a unified, strong face to the hospital. If the members are weak, the union will be weak.

    The biggest impedement right now, is the mass, overproducing of nurses, that was a deliberate ploy by hospitals to weaken any srtrength that nurses won in recent years. Here again, strong union backing will allow nurses to gain back any losses in contracts.

    Yes, nurses need to get out to the public, and educate the public about nurses, and why nurses are so important to their safety in the hospital. And yes, the book. "From Silence to Voice", is a must read for all nurses.

    If nurses don't organize to protect their profession, we will continue to have our professional practice handed over to others. We may not be as replacable as the employees of Hostess, but if we continue to allow or professional practice to be chipped away, we will not have a professional practice to protect. For that, nurses do need, UNION protection, with the NNOC.

    JMHO and my NY $0.02
    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN (ret)
    Somewhere in the PACNW
    HazelLPN, healthyglo, and sneeds like this.
  12. Visit  CraigB-RN profile page
    5
    Hmm. I've never been fired for it. I've made it a practice. I approach things as trying to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. The last time I had a disagreement with admin, the docs who's respect I had earned, backed me. More money, better shifts, and found a way to squeak another nurse into the rotation. I had shown that by my words and actions, I was looking out for their patients. Now I admit that this isn't going to work for everyone, but if we start a culture shift.

    Protection also has to come from within. As a culture, we don't protect our own. We throw each other under the bus on a daily basis. The culture of eating our own as it were.

    As to the BSN, yes I think it should be the entry point. PRobably for different reasons. I feel that the ADN is a con job. In the majority of cases, it takes almost as much time to make an ADN as it does a BSN. I fought in a place were the BSN was one semester longer than the ADN. It's not a conspiracy though that keeps them around. It's $. ADN programs are usually run through community colleges. with the state support, and grant and scholarships, it's possible to graduate, become an RN with only $800-$1400 of dept. Can't say that about many of the BSN programs. As an educator, it's not so much about the hours, but the whole format of nursing education. And why the heck are we still producing LPN's?

    I don't believe in the conspiracy theory that the hospitals are conspiring to produce more RN's to keep the cost down. You give the hospitals to much credit. It's the fact that schools have waiting lists of people wanting to get into nursing school. The more of them the schools can get in and out, the more money for them. Simple economics, not conspiracy. Still has the same net result in some places.

    I think your statement about weak individuals = week union better states my thoughts about unions in a way I wasn't doing a good job verbalizing.

    I agree with the need for more education on the background stuff we have to deal with. I'm always shocked at the number of posts here asking how do I get a license in another state. Not knowing a basic issue of our profession is unconscionable.

    Another issue is BON's. Why the heck do we tolerate 50+ different scope of practices for nurses? How did we get to a place where I am encouraged to do one thing in one state and then 18 mile away, just because I crossed a line on a map, if i did the same thing would get my license pulled and potentially put up on criminal charges for practicing outside my scope of practice? As I think about it, that may be were we need to start. If a nurse isn't a nurse everywhere, then it's hard to present a unified front.
    Woodenpug, healthyglo, sneeds, and 2 others like this.
  13. Visit  laborer profile page
    3
    Right On!!!
    healthyglo, Tao2200, and lindarn like this.

close
close