RN "Super Union"

Onekidneynurse · Dec 23, 2009

There is nothing in a contract to stop you from discussing issues with your supervisor . But I think the problem you are discussing here is that an individual nurse , cannot negotiate preferential treatment for themselves which would be at the expense of one of their fellow nurses . You know the situation where the former managers pet , always got holidays off while some other poor nurse worked all the holidays , now that poor pet has lost individual influence , can't run to manager to get their own way .
There is a difference between running a hospital like a business ( ie caring for patients ,while maintaining a sound financial basis , rather than caring for patient in a manner to ensure profit for shareholders and corporate officers ) and wanting to talk to management in a business like manner ie. talking in a fact based respectful manner about the problems and possible solution to a problem in that business .

And I've seen just the opposite. A nurse with senority in a union hospital doesn't have to work holidays. So it is NOT fair. And nurses who aren't competent are kept on because they are union.

Onekidneynurse · Dec 23, 2009

There is nothing in a contract to stop you from discussing issues with your supervisor . But I think the problem you are discussing here is that an individual nurse , cannot negotiate preferential treatment for themselves which would be at the expense of one of their fellow nurses . You know the situation where the former managers pet , always got holidays off while some other poor nurse worked all the holidays , now that poor pet has lost individual influence , can't run to manager to get their own way .
There is a difference between running a hospital like a business ( ie caring for patients ,while maintaining a sound financial basis , rather than caring for patient in a manner to ensure profit for shareholders and corporate officers ) and wanting to talk to management in a business like manner ie. talking in a fact based respectful manner about the problems and possible solution to a problem in that business .

I wonder how those union nurses learnt to talk in a business like manner. I"m sure a nurse, all by her lonesome, without union backing couldn't possibly do that.

Onekidneynurse · Dec 23, 2009

Some employers will cut expense corners any way they can....some will use age discrimination as a tool knowing that it is unlikely they will be challenged. Hospitals will continue to look for ways to minimize the expense that nurses represent to them.
Nurses cannot be priced out of a nursing market...who will do what nurses do, as well as nurses do it, for substantially less money? What happens if Fresnius decides that they will no longer pay the high wage for RNs and instead will staff exclusively with specially trained techs? The first thing that will happen is that nurses will lose their jobs, then Fresnius will make more money, then they will have an incident which would likely have been prevented by the assessment or interventional skills of an RN, then they will rethink the wisdom cutting that financial corner and nurses will be rehired.
I do not think that nurses will price themselves out of the market because nurses are integral to health care delivery, and because nurses are not asking for the moon and the stars. By and large nurses are looking for working conditions and wages which reflect their education, level of professionalism, and responsibility.

Then RN's should be making over $95/hr cuz that's what I paid a plumber last year. Do you think many RN's in this country could demand that rate?

UAP's, foreign nurses, travel healthcare, etc. Those are all ways to lose RN jobs in this country. Many jobs have been lost already. Techs are doing HD in many hospitals. Techs are doing home hemo. Home hemo is the up and coming way of doing HD. Actually, if a patient does home hemo they can go onto Medicare sooner... One RN monitoring the patient's progress by a partner or PCT doing the actual treatment. No public health nurses. Schools cutting back on nurses, and some c/o's of unlicensed people in the schools giving meds etc.

Fresenius has never paid high wages for RN's so I'm not worried about it. I don't call $22/hr high wages. And they have cut RN's in many units. Most Fresenius units make RN's take an assignment and many with 20 stations have 1 RN in the building. In some states an LPN can be in charge of an HD unit as long as there is an RN in the building. The Cinical Manager counts there. There are no ratios in HD at the Federal Level and CMS with it's new regs wouldn't implement them. Some states have them but not many. Funny thing is Fresenius is a German company. And Germany is a big union country. LOL

Pricing is a forward word. Maybe we aren't priced out of the market at the present time. The issue being discussed is a future issue.

Are you saying the sky is the limit? Because it's not. Many institutions have closed because they couldn't afford staff. That staff, no matter what they were making, had "priced" itself out of that market.......

Mindful, RN · Dec 23, 2009

:loveya::loveya::loveya: HAPPY HOLIDAYS

DLS_PMHNP, MSN, RN, NP · Dec 23, 2009

A nurse with senority in a union hospital doesn't have to work holidays. So it is NOT fair.

Not always the case.

We are union, and we rotate holidays. Sure seniority has its perks, but the more senior employees work the same amount of holidays. Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc are rotated on a year to year basis.

Best,

Diane

nicurn001 · Dec 23, 2009

In 30 years of nursing I've never been floated to a unit I was qualified to work...

If you were not qualified to work on these floors why the heck did you put those patients at risk .

I guess you view yourself as a professional nurse , surely one responsibility of a professional is not to put those they provide a service to at risk due to lack of their knowledge (" I've never floated to a unit I was qualified to work").

Or do you feel orientation is an unnecessary expense to the employer and that nurses should meekly work wherever and whenever their employers deems fit , whether or not that nurse knows what the heck they are doing ?.

By placing in a contract , adequate nursing orientation , unions and the nurses who negotiate the contract ensure the professional nurses can maintain safe care for the patients .They don't appear to have your cavalier attitude to professional responsibility .

Have a nice Christmas .

Onekidneynurse · Dec 23, 2009

If you were not qualified to work on these floors why the heck did you put those patients at risk .
I guess you view yourself as a professional nurse , surely one responsibility of a professional is not to put those they provide a service to at risk due to lack of their knowledge (" I've never floated to a unit I was qualified to work").
Or do you feel orientation is an unnecessary expense to the employer and that nurses should meekly work wherever and whenever their employers deems fit , whether or not that nurse knows what the heck they are doing ?.
By placing in a contract , adequate nursing orientation , unions and the nurses who negotiate the contract ensure the professional nurses can maintain safe care for the patients .They don't appear to have your cavalier attitude to professional responsibility .
Have a nice Christmas .

Sorry it was a typo. I've never been floated to a unit I'm NOT qualified to work. I've refused to go where I'm not qualified. And I didn't get any reprimand for not going. I simpley refused to go. And they either got someone who was to come in or floated someone with experience. So I never put any patients in jeopardy.

And I never had to orient to a unit I wasn't interested in. If we weren't interested in ER we didn't have to orient there or work there. NON UNION.

NO cavalier attitude on my part. Just a typo.

nicurn001 · Dec 23, 2009

Sorry it was a typo. I've never been floated to a unit I'm NOT qualified to work. I've refused to go where I'm not qualified. And I didn't get any reprimand for not going. I simpley refused to go. And they either got someone who was to come in or floated someone with experience. So I never put any patients in jeopardy.
And I never had to orient to a unit I wasn't interested in. If we weren't interested in ER we didn't have to orient there or work there. NON UNION.
NO cavalier attitude on my part. Just a typo.

Thank you for the clarification , your typo ( as you have described it ) just leapt off the screen , I couldn't believe what I was reading . Sorry for drawing the conclusion I did from the typo .

However the point I made about why union contracts havie a clause re. floating still holds true ie. it is there for the safety of patients and staff and is one of the ways in which a contract can help nurses maintain a professional atmosphere where they work and hold administration accountable if they do not adhere to the contract .

I Wish you and all contributors to Allnurses a Merry Christmas

Onekidneynurse · Dec 24, 2009

Thank you for the clarification , your typo ( as you have described it ) just leapt off the screen , I couldn't believe what I was reading . Sorry for drawing the conclusion I did from the typo .
However the point I made about why union contracts havie a clause re. floating still holds true ie. it is there for the safety of patients and staff and is one of the ways in which a contract can help nurses maintain a professional atmosphere where they work and hold administration accountable if they do not adhere to the contract .
I Wish you and all contributors to Allnurses a Merry Christmas

And I got my non-floating issue for FREE.......... LOL

Happy Holidays to you too.

tewdles, RN · Dec 24, 2009

Onekidneynurse,

Certainly I am wondering where you might have found any suggestion within my post that "the sky is the limit". You made some excellent posts about nursing positions, duties, and support which seem to support the concept of national bargaining unit which would give the small groups of nurses employed by bad actors a much louder and effective voice in advocating for their patients and themselves. I am aware that there are some questions about the employment and staffing practices of Fresnius...and admit that was why I chose that name.

I agree that we are not priced out of the market...I do not think we will be in general. There may be fewer nursing jobs in small physician practices or clinics as many of those duties can be completed competently by MAs and there is a physician in house in those situations. But, nurses are essential to the health of our citizenry...we will not likely become obsolete or expendable in the overall picture. Most nurses I am acquainted with are not up in arms about poor pay...most are concerned about the unreasonable and unsafe expectations of their employers.

My experience is that health systems which fail are the fault of management and not the fault of nurses making a wage competitive within that local market.

Onekidneynurse · Dec 25, 2009

Onekidneynurse,
Certainly I am wondering where you might have found any suggestion within my post that "the sky is the limit". You made some excellent posts about nursing positions, duties, and support which seem to support the concept of national bargaining unit which would give the small groups of nurses employed by bad actors a much louder and effective voice in advocating for their patients and themselves. I am aware that there are some questions about the employment and staffing practices of Fresnius...and admit that was why I chose that name.
I agree that we are not priced out of the market...I do not think we will be in general. There may be fewer nursing jobs in small physician practices or clinics as many of those duties can be completed competently by MAs and there is a physician in house in those situations. But, nurses are essential to the health of our citizenry...we will not likely become obsolete or expendable in the overall picture. Most nurses I am acquainted with are not up in arms about poor pay...most are concerned about the unreasonable and unsafe expectations of their employers.
My experience is that health systems which fail are the fault of management and not the fault of nurses making a wage competitive within that local market.

There are no more questions about FresEnius than any other instituions. Wanna talk about Kaiser saving money by having patients buy 10 mg tablets and cutting them in half to save money. Do you call that good patient care. Many of the meds they wanted the patients to cut shouldn't be cut. They aren't scored, they crumble when cut, or they maybe enteric coated. What did the California Unions do about that?

Do you know in some states CNA's called CMNA's can give meds in a NH. Fewer RN's needed that way. As I said before RN's can and very likely will price themselves out of jobs. Not every job, not every hospital, but it can and may very well have.

Check out virtual e-ICU nursing. A nurse can moniter several patient's from home and direct that care. What about robot nurses. Robots surely invaded the automobile manufacturing sector of the economy. Many people didn't want answering machines, didn't want computers, cell phones, but most people have them now.

As I said we may have not priced ourselves out of the market but it's possible we could.

I'm complaining about UNIONS not giving them ammunition to spread LOL. It's unions who've run done this country. Where are our manufacturing jobs. Off shore. Wayyyyyyyyyyy off shore. Because the work they did can be done cheaper elsewhere. Where are our paper manufacturing Off shore. The unions priced themselves out of the market. They just kept asking for more and more. My ex-bil worked for International Paper in the 60's. He was making upwards of $20 an hour when most people might have been making $2-$5 an hour. IP is pretty much gone now. Yes it took years but I remember that the writing was on the wall even back then. When the mills went in the fish in the rivers died off rather quickly. But not one UNION member cared one iota about that. They were making good paper and good money. In the late 80's they struck the paper mill because they were gonna lose their DOUBLE TIME on Sundays. No other workers were making DOUBLE TIME on Sundays. When IP didn't cave the UNION struck. And they BAD MOUTHED IP terribly for all the dead fish. When they were getting what they wanted they didn't care about those fish but when they wanted something they bad mouthed IP and tried to turn the community against them. They priced their kids right out of the market. Now their are no jobs in the area. Not just the paper mill, but grocery stores, clothing stores, eateries etc. It had a snow ball effect on the community.

Hospitals have been closing in the past few years. Can you even imagine what it costs to heat, air condition, have water in a hospital. Those things can't be negotitated. They have to be paid for. Have you ever known a union to offer to help keep costs down in a hospital. I haven't .

Many jobs have been eliminated for nurses over the years. I've been doing this job for almost 30 years. Gallbladder surgery. No NG, not big incision, same day surgery. Loss of a nursing job on MS. Breast surgery maybe overnight maybe not. Hip surgery gone in 2-3 days to NH. No coming into the hospital for weeks of antibiotics, get a PICC and have home health nurses do it. Or teach a family member. How many diabetics spend any time in the hospital learning to give themselves insulin? NONE. It's a gradual process but I see it escalating in the next few years.

Home hemo as I said before. More of a money maker. Let the patient pay for utilities. Electricity, heat, water storage of supplies and have a tech help them or better yet a family member. Machine tech to go out now and then to maintain the machine. We're teaching patients to stick themselves and put themselves on in the unit.

Just think Indian nurses in New Delhi could be wide awake monitoring patients in an ICU here in the USA. Checking labs, calling the doc for orders, looking at outputs. How much do you think that nurse would request for pay?

tewdles, RN · Dec 26, 2009

And so your solution to the bad medicine you describe is for nurses to shut up and allow the hospitals and insurance companies to continue on in that fashion? You mention "cost saving" tactics of hospitals as if nurses are or should be in agreement with those practices. How do you see nurses advocating for better patient care, improved safety, or improved outcomes in Kaiser, or Fresnius, or Humana?

You make excellent points about the current situation in health care, yet you are not in favor of change. Does that imply that you are okay with the status quo?

My thought is that we will continue to lose manufacturing jobs in this country as long as it costs 16% of our GDP for health care.