Nursing Unions - page 5

I am looking for information regarding nursing unions... the advantages, disadvantages, how they work, etc. I am in my last semester of a BSN program and this info will help me to prepare for a... Read More

  1. by   HM2VikingRN
    I have no need to repeat previous work. If you look back through my posts on this forum there are plenty of links available to support my comment about outcomes data.

    One of the differences that I think arises is how the social contract is reformulated. Union members (in general) demand that government perform and that is reflected in the outcomes data. (Add in that union members tend to advocate for policies arrived at through democratic decisions at the local level that benefit all working families and that explains many of the differences in the outcomes.)

    (Picking out problem cities in both RTW and non RTW states is easy. It is also not comparing apples to apples......)

    In solidarity
  2. by   Onekidneynurse
    Quote from emergency rn
    right, lol... next we'll be transporting our icu patients to china or india where nurses & doctors make one tenth of us salaries (or something ridiculous like that).

    seriously, unions are nothing more than a collective voice that speaks loudly for a class of similar interests. the only people or organizations that ever have problems with unions are those that don't want to listen to that collective voice. there is always strength in numbers, and even hospitals know this. they form their own unions but call them associations. hospital associations present a collective face to the public; they determine what prices they are willing to pay for supplies; whose political campaign gets contributed to; et cetera. in other words, they collective bargain with society through an allied front because they all have similar interests and needs. in this regard, they are very pro collective bargaining because it aids their own operations. they're just not willing to allow those that they have to deal with, the same collective voice advantage.

    support your nursing unions!
    india seems to be the country of choice this week. if you don't think nurses can't be insourced or outsourced then you are putting your head in the sand.

    the unions in detroit priced themselves right out of jobs. that is a fact.
  3. by   Onekidneynurse
    Quote from HM2VikingRN
    I have no need to repeat previous work. If you look back through my posts on this forum there are plenty of links available to support my comment about outcomes data.

    One of the differences that I think arises is how the social contract is reformulated. Union members (in general) demand that government perform and that is reflected in the outcomes data. (Add in that union members tend to advocate for policies arrived at through democratic decisions at the local level that benefit all working families and that explains many of the differences in the outcomes.)

    (Picking out problem cities in both RTW and non RTW states is easy. It is also not comparing apples to apples......)

    In solidarity
    So you admit that RTW states have good outcomes. A turn about on your part? Wanna talk about Baylor University in Texas, or Duke or UNC in NC. Or Vanderbuilt in TN. All right to work states. Even some Arizona healthcare out comes beat out Cali right next door. With all it's "great union care" and staffing ratios etc.

    It's sorta like when my town wanted to build a new school and keep the same old teachers. A building didn't educate the students.
  4. by   GCTMT
    Quote from Onekidneynurse
    India seems to be the country of choice this week. If you don't think nurses can't be insourced or outsourced then you are putting your head in the sand.

    The unions in Detroit priced themselves right out of jobs. That is a fact.

    Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? You say it's a fact that they "priced themselves right out of jobs". I say their employers exploited third-world populations because American workers asked for decent wages and decent working conditions.

    So, should I assume that you think it's okay for Wal-Mart, for example, to exploit the people of China so that Americans can buy cheap crap, while simultaneously devaluing the worth of the working class American?

    What's wrong with asking for a decent living and a decent workplace?
  5. by   HM2VikingRN
    Quote from Onekidneynurse
    So you admit that RTW states have good outcomes. A turn about on your part? Wanna talk about Baylor University in Texas, or Duke or UNC in NC. Or Vanderbuilt in TN. All right to work states. Even some Arizona healthcare out comes beat out Cali right next door. With all it's "great union care" and staffing ratios etc.

    It's sorta like when my town wanted to build a new school and keep the same old teachers. A building didn't educate the students.
    No I said compare apples to apples. Undoubtedly some of the universities in the RTW states are good to great institutions. I spoke to things like percentage of uninsured, HS graduation rates, percentage of the populace with college educations, teen pregnancy rates etc. I was speaking to population data. IOW data derived from populations of people. These are all metrics where non-RTW states in general outperform RTW states.

    I was speaking to the social contract that tends to evolve in states with strong protections of workers and their right to organize.
  6. by   Emergency RN
    Quote from onekidneynurse
    india seems to be the country of choice this week. if you don't think nurses can't be insourced or outsourced then you are putting your head in the sand.

    the unions in detroit priced themselves right out of jobs. that is a fact.
    indian, or other foreign nurses cannot be "insourced" unless the us congress is convinced that the job skill set cannot be resourced by available us employment market assets. a lot of people fervently talk about foreigners coming over and taking us nursing jobs from americans, but the truth is, the us state department won't grant anyone an h1 work visa unless congress authorizes it.

    as for your other fact; so what you're saying is, that if the american auto worker was only paid, say, ...half of what he normally earned, the american made automobile would be the best selling car in the world?

    lol... detroit fell on their faces from a myriad of reasons, and most of them had nothing to do with unions, but rather bad management instead. years ago, i remember lee iaccoca on national television begging the american public to allow chrysler time to "retool" their plants and to give them a chance after japanese imports pounded detroit into the mud. the unions in detroit did not price themselves out of a job; they could have worked for free and the automakers still would have lost market share. why? because us automakers simply dropped the ball and got sandbagged; they were making a product that no one wanted. even tremendous markdown sales, rebates, extras, whatever, couldn't steer the american buyer away from their foreign made vehicles. big auto fell on their swords, and took their innocent hard working employees with them. when companies fail, it is never the workers fault, but always the management's misdoing.

    i suppose now someone out there is going to harp on how the unionized secretary ruined lehman brothers, and thus the us economy and thence the world financial markets. people are certainly entitled to believe whatever they want; just that many of those facts being spouted aren't supported at all by the historical evidence.

    support your nursing unions!
  7. by   Onekidneynurse
    Quote from GCTMT
    Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? You say it's a fact that they "priced themselves right out of jobs". I say their employers exploited third-world populations because American workers asked for decent wages and decent working conditions.

    So, should I assume that you think it's okay for Wal-Mart, for example, to exploit the people of China so that Americans can buy cheap crap, while simultaneously devaluing the worth of the working class American?

    What's wrong with asking for a decent living and a decent workplace?
    Do you get double time on Sundays? Let's see a job or the poor house. I vote for the job. BTW I believe China is loaning America money now. LOL
  8. by   Onekidneynurse
    Quote from HM2VikingRN
    No I said compare apples to apples. Undoubtedly some of the universities in the RTW states are good to great institutions. I spoke to things like percentage of uninsured, HS graduation rates, percentage of the populace with college educations, teen pregnancy rates etc. I was speaking to population data. IOW data derived from populations of people. These are all metrics where non-RTW states in general outperform RTW states.

    I was speaking to the social contract that tends to evolve in states with strong protections of workers and their right to organize.

    And I did a search. And many of the RTW states have better outcomes. I don't know where you got your data I know what the government data says though.
  9. by   Man In Black
    Being a data geek I picked a very direct resource and pulled some data. Poverty under age 18 statistics derived from http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/saipe/saipe.cgi

    RTW:
    Alabama 19.8%
    FLA 16.7%
    GA 20.2%
    TX 22.5%
    SD 17.6%
    Mean: 19.36% in poverty
    (<5 mean 23.9%)

    Non RTW States:
    MN 11.4%
    WA 13.6%
    WA 14.3%
    VT 12.8%
    CA 18.5%
    Mean: 14.12%
    (<5 mean 16.76%)

    These were states drawn relatively randomly. There is a clear difference in outcome between these states. Poverty was chosen as the metric because it is the single best predictor of educational and health problems. (Under age 5 poverty is even more pernicious as a risk factor for poor child development and performance.)
    Last edit by Man In Black on Jan 1, '10
  10. by   Onekidneynurse
    Quote from Man In Black
    Being a data geek I picked a very direct resource and pulled some data. Poverty under age 18 statistics derived from http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/saipe/saipe.cgi

    RTW:
    Alabama 19.8%
    FLA 16.7%
    GA 20.2%
    TX 22.5%
    SD 17.6%
    Mean: 19.36% in poverty

    Non RTW States:
    MN 11.4%
    WA 13.6%
    WA 14.3%
    VT 12.8%
    CA 18.5%
    Mean: 14.12%

    These were states drawn relatively randomly. There is a clear difference in outcome between these states. Poverty was chosen as the metric because it is the single best predictor of educational and health problems. (Under age 5 poverty is even more pernicious as a harmful factor for child development and performance.)

    Dead link. And that data is 10years old... Florida is mostly a retiree state. How do you determine poverty in an under 18 population there. Census is not objective data either. People can put down whatever they want.

    I'm 58 and have never been interviewed as an adult in any census.
  11. by   Man In Black
    Click here http://www.census.gov/did/www/saipe/...nty/index.html


    Click on create interactive tables.....The data is based on 2008 figures....
  12. by   HM2VikingRN
    Thanks MIB for posting this. The methodology papers for poverty estimation were quite interesting.
  13. by   PICUPNP
    This is just more propaganda from the union camp trying to show how unions are going to save the world.

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