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  1. "
    "if you seek the good in people you will surely find it" Abraham Lincoln

    Hi all I'm new here. I have been doing research on the Nursig profession and what specialties I could eventually go into. I have pretty much read all of the posts here and have looked at general Nursing and the NP site. Pretty good information. I am currently a SW Engineer, I want to change careers and work more directly with poeple. My girlfriend is a Nurse and has been telling me stories about what she does, its fasinating. I think this particular site (CRNA) is the most informative, you take the time to help people with their questions. So I guess here's mine.

    I went back a bit and found the thread on MDA vs. CRNA, and I went there to read the 19 pages of debate. What concerns me is this. I plan on attending the Master's in Generic Nursing at DePaul. This curriculum was developed for people like myself that has a Master's already and wants to become a Nurse and take the necessary graduate level courses, someday to specialize. That site, studentdoc.net scared the she** out of me (pardon my French) these students really blew me away, SO I looked and compared the MDA program from one University with the Rush Pres. St. Luke CRNA program and my questions are:

    1) Can anyone refer me to a site that has the details about a CRNA program? I.e. who teaches the classes and are the Anatomy/Physiology classes the same as MD's...where is the actual split occurring between MDA's and CRNA's.

    2) Do you think with the creation of AA's that CRNA's will be pushed out because frankly it seems that that's what happened in the NP's with the creation of PA's

    3) Can anyone refer me to a site or maybe actual experience (which is always better) on any CRNA research being worked on? This question came from the comments from the MD students who have made a point to say no good Anesthesia research and development comes from CRNA's.

    4) Does anyone know if work is being done to add more MDA course material to the current CRNA course material in CRNA programs?


    For me 2 years to become a Nurse and then another 2 years ICU experience (I don't think 1 year is enough for me since Nursing is a new field for me) is a big enough commitment, then to go to a school for CRNA training is again another 2 years of rigorous training only to see it dwindle away because of Dr.'s being jealous that CRNA's are independent, and that's what I got out of that 19 page thread, their real problem was the independent nature of CRNA's, not so much the money. I just want to make sure I'm making the right choice in the end I love people, I want to help them, I don't have a problem with Dr.'s having the upper hand, as long as they respect me. Eventually my main goal is to learn to become a Nurse, specialize in a field then eventually do research the final years of my life. I appeciate your comments.
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  2. 8 Comments

  3. by   kmchugh
    Originally posted by chigirl

    "1) Can anyone refer me to a site that has the details about a CRNA program? I.e. who teaches the classes and are the Anatomy/Physiology classes the same as MD's...where is the actual split occurring between MDA's and CRNA's."

    The actual split occurs when MDA's find there are CRNA's who are working that are not contributing part of their salary to the betterment of MDA's. That's the bottom line. Go to the following site:

    http://www.anesthesia-nursing.com/school.html

    Check out the curriculum of any or all of the schools. MDA's are not graduating medical schools as MDA's. They are graduating as MD's, then doing a three year residency in anesthesia. CRNA's are graduating from nursing schools as BSN's, then doing 1 or more years critical care, the returning for another 2-3 years of school to become CRNA's. If you read my posts at the student doctor net, you will see that much of the class work is the same for CRNA's and MD's.

    "2) Do you think with the creation of AA's that CRNA's will be pushed out because frankly it seems that that's what happened in the NP's with the creation of PA's"

    No, and I don't think that is what happened with NP's either. The bottom line is that the AA, or PA license is dependent on a physician to practice. No nursing license is dependent on anyone to practice. Right now, there are only two schools who are graduating AA's, and I think only two states where AA's are allowed to practice. There are no current plans that I am aware of to increase those numbers. The problem with AA's is that they can only work in hospitals where there are MDA's, under the direct supervision of the MDA. CRNA's, on the other hand, also work in hospitals where there are no MDA's. There are anesthesia groups out there run by and owned by CRNA's. They are practicing independently, safely, I might add, and have been for years. That is where the argument of the ASA falls apart miserably.

    "3) Can anyone refer me to a site or maybe actual experience (which is always better) on any CRNA research being worked on? This question came from the comments from the MD students who have made a point to say no good Anesthesia research and development comes from CRNA's."

    Again, go to the AANA website, and the following site:

    http://www.anesthesia-nursing.com/index.html

    for more information. I read CRNA done research every month in my AANA journal. Just because a medical student refuses to read research that is not done by an MD does not mean that only MD's do good research. As you progress through nursing, should you decide to follow that route, you will find medical students and residents are not nearly as knowledgeable as they want you to think they are.

    "4) Does anyone know if work is being done to add more MDA course material to the current CRNA course material in CRNA programs?"

    Of course not. MD course work is medical school. CRNA course work is geared to a different professional, who already has experience interacting with patients, experience in giving vasoactive medications or performing invasive testing, and monitoring the patient for outcomes of these interventions. Most CRNA's would bridle at the idea that "more MDA" coursework needed to be given to CRNA's.

    Kevin McHugh, CRNA
  4. by   kmchugh
    PS: There have been rumors about the demise of CRNA's for more years than my program director has been a CRNA (over 25 years now, I think). That is mostly wishful thinking on the part of the ASA, who is almost criminally shortsighted.

    Kevin McHugh, CRNA
  5. by   nursedawn67
    Welcome to the boards!
  6. by   loisane
    chigirl,

    When I read your post I immediately wanted to respond. Then I read Kevin's response, and he says it all very well, so I find very little to add

    1) I am a program instructor, and at our program CRNAs teach A&P, Pharm, etc. But there are many programs where those courses are taught in their respective departments. They have additional classes for the "anesthetic implications" of A&P, etc.

    3) I just attended our national meeting in Orlando, and you should have seen the tons of outstanding research presented. I think what happens is we don't follow through with the publication maybe as much as we could. But that is true for all of nursing in general, and I think we are making steady progress on this.

    2) and 4) Can't add anything, Kevin is right on target!

    Have you looked into any of the ND programs? There are only a few, but you would end up with a doctorate, which might be of interest to you. I believe the one at Case Western in Cleveland is set up for entry level nursing. Just another thought for you.

    I entered nursing as a "second" career, it was the best choice I ever made. Good luck to you.

    loisane CRNA
  7. by   braden74
    loisane,

    what school are you affiliated with? i like the idea of having the a&p directed towards anesthesia.

    curious
  8. by   chigirl
    Kevin McHugh, CRNA

    "Of course not. MD course work is medical school. CRNA course work is geared to a different professional, who already has experience interacting with patients, experience in giving vasoactive medications or performing invasive testing, and monitoring the patient for outcomes of these interventions. Most CRNA's would bridle at the idea that "more MDA" coursework needed to be given to CRNA's. "

    I should have elaborated, what I meant was any of the clinical work done during the three-year residency if anything is different. What you do is truly a specialty and the fact that Nurses have been doing it for 100 years is impressive. For ME this specific question again was geared toward learning everything about the field so as to go into research in my final years, where ever the material is.
    Kevin thanks for responding.

    Thanks !! greer128

    loisane CRNA

    Research can be done by anyone I don't se the MD's points about how Nurses can't do the research using the scientific method. That to me was the most ignorant statement I am a SW Engineer Sr. and that statement was ridiculous period. In the CRNA field even research done about pain management, equipment (I luv Hardware) medication, etc., could be done and probably is (I will research haven't had time just got back from Las Vegas my brain is still in vacation mode :-d) . Thanks for taking the time to respond.
  9. by   chigirl
    I entered nursing as a "second" career, it was the best choice I ever made. Good luck to you.

    loisane CRNA

    Loisane I gotta tell you looking at computers for 12 years is making me sick I need people in my life, I thank you for your encouragement I think I'm onthe right track, but as always babysteps......

    chigirl
  10. by   chigirl
    PS: There have been rumors about the demise of CRNA's for more years than my program director has been a CRNA (over 25 years now, I think). That is mostly wishful thinking on the part of the ASA, who is almost criminally shortsighted.

    Kevin McHugh, CRNA

    Kevin there is always ways of dealing with poeple like that , numbers and statistics, that will satisfy the Government, HMO, etc.. (Thats probably the best thing I learned in Corporate America winning ground based on statistical analysis) One thing I noticed on that studentdoc.net site was whenever you talked about the money, demand, they didn't quite get it. You have to ask yourself why, IF the CRNA's are so incompetent have they survived for 100 years.....Thats the question to ask yourself if you are truly dedicated to this field as an MDA or a CNRA, because IMHO the answer is credibility. If the nubers are there so is the credibility period. Not just lobyists and unions that would definately not be enough if the numbers weren't there, and nobody talked about that.

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