Foreign MDs becoming US CRNAs - page 2
by calgal 17,472 Views | 40 Comments
I had a very interesting conversation with an RN the other day. Her sister is a physician in another country and could not get into the US as a practicing physician. Instead, she went to nursing school in her home country... Read More
- 0Mar 22, '04 by ThinkingAboutItQuote from pasgasserAs a physician I have come in contact with several foreign trained doctors the biggest issue is that often they cannot pass the USMLE and therefore cannot practice medicine in the US. For some the difficulty with the exam is a language barrier others lack the knowledge to pass the exam. This is not much of an issue for doctors from countries such as England, Germany, ect. who have good medical training.
Sure, but it is almost impossible for them to get a visa to get here and take the test, and even then they aren't allowed to just to take the USMLE to become a doctor. It's hard to pass a test that you are not allowed to take. And very few foriegner doctors can afford to go med school in the US, because of the cost. The AMA has convinced everyone that the foreign doctors have all gotten substandard training, but the training the nurses from these same foreign countries have received is O.K.
- 0Mar 22, '04 by calgalI have no issue with anyone wanting a better life for themselves. I would be the last person to criticize someone's effort to try to get a green card. After all, my own father was a physician in another country and emigrated to the US (Chicago) and worked as a hospital aide until he passed all the required boards and numerous other requirements in order to be certified as a general surgeon within the US.
I have an issue with foreign MDs who, failing to pass US requirements for physicians, go back to their countries, hide their physician qualifications, become RNs in order to go to the US. It is also my understanding that if asked, these physicians-turned-RNs will not acknowledge that they were ever physicians in their home countries.
Why does there have to be this atmosphere of deception? Why do they need to hide anything? They just need to be honest about their backgrounds so that when application time for CRNA school comes around, admissions committees know who the candidate are, in addition to gaining some insight into what their true qualifications are.
When the final selection for the 2005 class is made to a CRNA school of my choice, I just want to know that the choices were made based on solid, credible information and that my qualifications were not diminished by someone else's deception.
- 0Mar 22, '04 by nilepocThinkingaboutit, I hope you are not saying that nurses have good representation at the federal level. Because it just isn't so. The lobby driving the admittance of foriegn trained nurses, is not the ANA. Most likely it is the hospitals that drive that demand. I would hope that the ANA would lobby for more education oportunities, not more foriegn nurses. Bringing in nurses, only patches a hole that we have now, it does nothing for the future.
- 0Mar 22, '04 by ThinkingAboutItNilepoc,
I am saying that nurses have very little clout in politics which is one the problems with nursing. The AMA has sets the policies and direction for Health Care in the US, and if you notice the wages of doctors has always went up. You don't see a flood of doctors from other countries coming to the US do you? Why? Do you think that there are millions of doctors who would love to make $200,000/year instead of making $10,000/year? The AMA has erected all sorts of barriers to keep them out! They can't get visas, thier education is not applicable, and even their years of experience do not count. It is the AMA's position that foriegners practice medicine with voodoo dolls or something.
Go to INS.GOV and you will see that you get the express track to get a visa if your a nurse, because there is a shortage of nurses. To become a nurse all they have to do is pass an english test and the RN test in that state. No barriers there, just a paved highway!
There is a shortage of nurses. The million dollar question is why is there a shortage of nurses? Is it some skill that foriegners are necessary to fill the vacancies?
The main reason that there is a shortage of nurses is that nursing has had historically low wages! Once women could choose any occupation they wanted they no longer choose nursing, because there are many higher paying occupations that have less stress. If you allow thousands of foriegn nurses to fill the vacant slots what will happen? Wages will fall or stay stagnant. Will Americans want to spend $50,000 to go get a BSN? No.
In my opinion, the current shortage is a good thing it will drive up the salary of nursing. As the salaries go up you get more talented people, and more educational and professional options for people interested in nursing.
I think that there should immigration to the US, and particularly immigration of talented people. But it seems that occupations like interests of nursing have been adequately represented in US policy.
- 0Mar 22, '04 by deepzQuote from ThinkingAboutItYes. And beyond the economics is the sea change in the social status of American women in general. Why should they subject themselves to a role like the doctor's handmaiden when they have the power to become doctors themselves? When I was a 17 y/o freshman SN (don't ask when), the wonderful old maid instructors just loved to tell us how lucky we sprouts were, not to have to shine the interns' and residents' shoes for them, or cook their meals, do the doctors' laundry, haul in buckets of coal, etc. And for us to get a whole weekend off -- scandalous. Times have changed.......The main reason that there is a shortage of nurses is that nursing has had historically low wages! Once women could choose any occupation they wanted they no longer choose nursing....
Still, America may be the only nation where physicians admit private patients and then treat the hospital staff as if the doctors themselves paid the staff. Higher salaries will HELP attract new nurses, but will they stay? There seems to be STILL a long, long way to go to improve the social status of nurses within hospitals. More control of nursing roles and duties by nurses might help. ...That power shift is still over the horizon, seems to me.
- 0Mar 22, '04 by Brenna's DadI am a Canadian born and educated RN.
I came to the US knowing nothing about nurse Anesthesia.
What I can tell you, is that there is a SERIOUS shortage of RNs in this country. There is such a shortage, that Registered Nurses (along with Physical therapists) are considered a Schedule A occupation. Meaning that potential employers do not have to meet Labour requirements as EVERY other occupation does. In almost every other circumstance, if a USA employer wants to hire a foreign employee they have to prove that there is not a qualified US citizen for the job. They prove this by running classifieds in journals, newspapers, etc.
However, as someone who has navigated the emmense beauracracy of the Immigration and Nationalization service, I can tell you with absolute certainty, that gaining access into the USA is an extremely difficult proposition, even for nurses. Despite, RNs being listed as a schedule A occupation.
- 0Mar 22, '04 by RepQuote from ThinkingAboutItSure, but it is almost impossible for them to get a visa to get here and take the test, and even then they aren't allowed to just to take the USMLE to become a doctor. It's hard to pass a test that you are not allowed to take. And very few foriegner doctors can afford to go med school in the US, because of the cost. The AMA has convinced everyone that the foreign doctors have all gotten substandard training, but the training the nurses from these same foreign countries have received is O.K.
What is happening here in the Philippines is that most of these doctors have no plan to take the USMLE so that they can start and practice as doctors. What they are doing is going back to nursing schools so they can work as nurses in the States. Very pathetic indeed when these same Filipino doctors practicing here in the Philippines treat their fellow nurses as slaves. Here in the Philippines, nurses were not encourage to voiced out their concern regarding patients care and to treat doctors as gods. . Unlike in the US where nurses are one of the important members in the health team.
- 0May 16, '04 by ethelbsnrnREP,
Are you practising nursing in the US? If not, how could you compare the atmosphere here in the US with that in the Phils? Please, don't make it appear that foreign nurses are not as good as the US-educated nurses. We are allowed to voice out our opinions re: patient care. We have freedom of speech and opinion. And that is true whether you are in USA or in a foreign land.
- 0May 17, '04 by geecueThere are quite a few Philippinos that were 'physicians' in their homeland and are now practicing RN's at my hospital. I'm not going to speak for all the foreign to US RN's, but I asked them personally why in the world would they become an RN instead of an MD. Simply put: 'lack of ambition' was what they told me. I see your point CalGal about the deception but from the few I talked too...maybe they aren't cut out to practice here. The UCMLE exam is extremely difficult (my father took it and is practicing Dermatology in the East Coast). What I'm seeing more now in different hospitals is a a large influx of RN's from other countries (Phillipines, India etc) that are getting hired on (ICU even!) without any prior experience. With the huge nursing shortage we are experiencing....it makes me wonder where we're heading when theyre paying these nurses 18 bucks an hour, thus forcing the qualified and experienced RN's to look elsewhere for work because they can't get inhouse or overtime pay. Is the dollar more important to management these days instead of quality of care?