Does it bother CRNA's that MDA's get so much more...?

Specialties CRNA

Published

Hey guys,

I'm not a CRNA yet. I want to be. I just got hired in a MICU/SICU. I was just wondering if it bothered any CRNA's the fact that MDs who practice anesthesia get paid wayy more for doing the same thing? I know some hospitals/facilities require the MDA oversee the CRNA, but does that equate to a couple hundred K more?

I don't know...I just feel CRNA's are not compensated enough for the ENORMOUS amount of responsibility and knowledge they hold.

Specializes in Medical/Telemetry. Now ICU.
Exactly. You can become a CRNA (theoretically) in 8-ish years? 4 years BSN, 1 year CC, 3 years CRNA school (at the low end of the scale).

To become an anesthesiologist requires at least 11 - 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school (assuming you get in right away, a lot of people take a year of to work/do research/gain experience/ECs) and then I think anes residency is three years? It might be four, I don't remember.

CRNA's don't have nearly the knowledge the MDAs do, no offense. In the end the MD is often the one responsible for the patient, so yes, I do believe they get paid the right amount for their work. You want the responsibility and the money, go to MD/DO school.

Hi. I don't need you to break down how many years of schooling it is. I have doctors in my family. I already know that. I have nurses in my family. and I am a RN for 3 years too. I know all about the years of schooling, and training. THANKS! :)

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CRNA's are stil acting under the MD license and direction.......and technically orders. I believe a MD needs to be present on induction and emergence.

Actually, CRNAs are licensed independent providers and function upon their own accord. They do not function UNDER an MD license in any state. They are independent providers and are responsible for their own actions and decisions. CRNAs do not function with orders from an MD either.

Supervision of CRNAs by an anesthesiologist is a billing function.

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Specializes in Medical/Telemetry. Now ICU.
Actually, CRNAs are licensed independent providers and function upon their own accord. They do not function UNDER an MD license in any state. They are independent providers and are responsible for their own actions and decisions. CRNAs do not function with orders from an MD either.

Supervision of CRNAs by an anesthesiologist is a billing function.

Are you a CRNA?

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Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
CRNA's are stil acting under the MD license and direction.......and technically orders. I believe a MD needs to be present on induction and emergence. If you want the pay of the MD then go to school to be one. It taks 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school, 3.5 years of anesthesia and another 2-5 if they specialize like Open heart or transplant near death anesthetics.

You are a nurse. A CRNA is a specialized nurse. YOu have 4 years BSN, 15-18 months masters

Are a lot of CRNA programs only 15-18 months? The 2 Masters in Nurse Anesthesia programs in boston are much longer. I believe Northeastern just extended their program to 32 or 36 months!

That is very possible, but I believe they include getting your MSN or Phd with your CRNA to then sit for the certification exam. If you see on my statement a straight masters program is 15-18 months and then anesthesia school another 2.5. quote] A CRNA is a specialized nurse. YOu have 4 years BSN, 15-18 months masters, I year critical care experience and 2.5 years CRNA school. end quote] and then whatever residency program that follows.

I am curious....why does it matter if we are students for CRNA's or not. :smokin:

I see that you are new to AN and when you post, anyone including non medical people can comment on your posts, whether you say CRNA"S only or not. The forums are there so you may find information readily and contact your speciality directly. All forums are public domain and can end up in general nursing discussion if the moderators feel it would make a good discussion. There you will have CNA's, student nurses, people who want to be nurses, medical assistants, respiratorytherapists, the general public, and professional patients. SO your posts will gain a cross of education, experience and educational backgrounds.

I am not a CRNA nor am I a student. I am a registered nurse with 32 years as a critical care nurse/emergency nurse/trauma flight nurse experence. I rememeber when it was called Assistant Anesthesia RN and it was OTJT (on the job training). I think you need to get your critical care skill honed as you will need them in the OR and will go a long way towards making you an excellent CRNA. I understand your ambition and excitement....but if your peers think your are using them as a stepping stone.....isn't very endearing and you're in for a long haul.

Good luck to you!!!!! Peace:heartbeat

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Specializes in Medical/Telemetry. Now ICU.

Well I just wanted opinions from CRNAs...bc the post was about CRNAs. That's why. Nothing against RNs, OBV...I am one. haha. But my question was specifically directed AT CRNAs....and then i felt like eveyone EXCEPT CRNA's were answering. Which wasn't helpful to my question.

But yea....I love learning. My house is filled up with so many EKG practice books and nursing manuals after I graduated from nursing school. Will be studying till I retire :)

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I don't care about the money. I'm more financially stable than most 50 years olds at 27 years old. I was just making a comment. I'm not a greedy person bc I made a comment about money. Please don't judge me when you don't even know me. THANKS!!!!!!!!

Crying more than the bereaved aye? You're possibly advocating for all CRNAs then, no?

I would be the last person to pass judgement on another. I react to the post only. I have absolutely nothing against you...just the post:D

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
CRNA's are stil acting under the MD license and direction.......and technically orders. I believe a MD needs to be present on induction and emergence. If you want the pay of the MD then go to school to be one. It taks 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school, 3.5 years of anesthesia and another 2-5 if they specialize like Open heart or transplant near death anesthetics.

You are a nurse. A CRNA is a specialized nurse. YOu have 4 years BSN, 15-18 months masters, I year critical care experience and 2.5 years CRNA school. You go to school less and pay less liability, you will paid less, although still a great wage due to only go up. It really really annoys me sometimes....:cool: this line of thinking. NP's are not MD's and CRNA's are not MD's........you are nurses with specialized training that entitles you for more automony and responsibility and therefore more money, but you remain a nurse.

I know I will be flamed.:flmngmd:BUt here it goes......... If you want the pay and responsibility of the MD...go to school and be one.:sofahider.

I just hope that the draw of the money for becomming a CRNA is not all about the money but for the love of anesthesia...........Good luck! peace:heartbeat

No, CRNAs do not have to work under an MD license or direction.

No, MDAs or physicians don't have to be anywhere in the building or planet for that matter during induction or emergence.

The shortest nurse anesthesia school is 24 months, and most are moving to add more time to include the DNP/DNAP curriculum.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you at least know what you are talking about before developing an opinion.

CRNAs are the oldest APN. CRNAs have been around for over 120yrs. CRNAs can and do practice independently in every state. CRNAs have been practicing independently for over 120 yrs, and CRNAs aren't fighting to increase independence as other APNs are CRNAs are fighting to maintain the independence they have always had. MDAs were an extremely small speciality until approximately the 1950's when it became lucrative speciality.

Study after study has shown equal care when given by independent CRNAs, MDAs, or CRNA/MDA teams.

The pay for civilian CRNAs is good, but it is comparable to the responsibility that CRNAs have. MDAs don't necessarily have increased responsibilities. In an ACT practice MDAs can often work as hard as they want to, if they want to sit in the break room all day that is what he/she will do.

I like the fact that MDAs make a lot more than CRNAs it makes CRNAs a more economical commodity. Who wants to pay an MDA 2-3x as much to do exactly the same thing a CRNA does.

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Specializes in CRNA.

the level of ignorance regarding the nurse anesthetist profession on this website is absolutely astounding. that is why you do not find too many crnas posting. crnas have actually been around for more than 100 years and "otjt" ended in sister mary bernard's day (1880's). i have never heard of an "assistant anesthesia rn". i have heard of anesthesiologist assistants. they are not necessarily nurses but they have been practicing for over 32 years. there are also no programs that run 15-18 months and you cannot get your degree online. we do not practice under a physician's license. we practice under our own license. we are allowed to administer anesthesia independently. in fact there are many crna only groups throughout the united states. do you think crnas in the armed services practice under the license of an anesthesiologist? may i suggest reading a book called watchful care by marianne bankert. it will give you a pretty solid history lesson concerning nurse anesthetists. also, if you really want to know what we can or cannot do, check out a more reliable site, aana.com. that way, the next time a poster would like to comment on the practice rights of a crna they will be accurate.

if one is angry with their salary or resentful of someone else because they make more...welcome to life. it is not always fair. there is no rule that says it has to be. crnas are paid what they are worth because of market demand and location. want to make more, go work in independent practice, moonlight or move to a rural location. no one is stopping you.

http://www.amazon.com/watchful-care-history-americas-anesthetists/dp/082640510x

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Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
no, crnas do not have to work under an md license or direction.

no, mdas or physicians don't have to be anywhere in the building or planet for that matter during induction or emergence.

the shortest nurse anesthesia school is 24 months, and most are moving to add more time to include the dnp/dnap curriculum.

you are entitled to your opinion, but you at least know what you are talking about before developing an opinion.

crnas are the oldest apn. crnas have been around for over 120yrs. crnas can and do practice independently in every state. crnas have been practicing independently for over 120 yrs, and crnas aren't fighting to increase independence as other apns are crnas are fighting to maintain the independence they have always had. mdas were an extremely small speciality until approximately the 1950's when it became lucrative speciality.

study after study has shown equal care when given by independent crnas, mdas, or crna/mda teams.

the pay for civilian crnas is good, but it is comparable to the responsibility that crnas have. mdas don't necessarily have increased responsibilities. in an act practice mdas can often work as hard as they want to, if they want to sit in the break room all day that is what he/she will do.

i like the fact that mdas make a lot more than crnas it makes crnas a more economical commodity. who wants to pay an mda 2-3x as much to do exactly the same thing a crna does.

i applaud your passion .....as a crna you are not an independent practioner in some states, so i stand corrected. somewhere you have a medical director signing off and providing "coverage" especially when medicare patients are involved. but you cannpt practice independently in all state as that is mandated by stae law.

the degree of independence or supervision by a licensed provider (physician, dentist, or podiatrist) varies with state law. so in my state there is the requirment for an md present for induction and emergence. some states use the term collaboration to define a relationship where the supervising physician is responsible for the patient and provides medical direction for the nurse anesthetist. other states require the consent or order of a physician or other qualified licensed provider to administer the anesthetic.

nurses have been administering anesthesia for 150 years.. dating to the civil war.....the official first nurse was sister mary benard in 1877. the first school of nurse anesthesia was formed in 1909 at st. vincent hospital, portland, oregon. established by agnes mcgee, the course was six months long, and included courses on anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, and administration of common anesthetic agents. the council of accredation were developed in the 1970's around 1976. around 1978 an official masters collegiate cirriculum at cal state with kaiser perm. in the united states, nurse anesthetists practice under the state's nursing practice act (not medical practice acts), which outlines the scope of practice for anesthesia nursing.

so, i'm not as uneducated as you think...... want to be crna.:heartbeat

the largest group in independent practicing crnas are the military and you mentioned civilian pay.....are you military? i didn't say crna's weren't good at what they do....they're nurses so i have every faith they are educated and caring and are perfectly capable and conciencious....in some instances mor3e than md's because we all know how they can be.

i didn't say it wasn't cost effective to have crna's i said to the op....if you want the same pay as an md then be an md. we as nurses....we all deserve more pay. the amount of responsibility we are burdened with far supasses our reimbursement in our pockets.

op you can request for crna's to answer, but you cannot dictate who does....it's the nature of the site.

good luck in school!!!!!! peace....:smokin:

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Specializes in Medical/Telemetry. Now ICU.

Thanks :)

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Specializes in Surgical ICU.
i applaud your passion .....as a crna you are not an independent practioner in some states, so i stand corrected. somewhere you have a medical director signing off and providing "coverage" especially when medicare patients are involved. but you cannpt practice independently in all state as that is mandated by stae law.

the degree of independence or supervision by a licensed provider (physician, dentist, or podiatrist) varies with state law. so in my state there is the requirment for an md present for induction and emergence. some states use the term collaboration to define a relationship where the supervising physician is responsible for the patient and provides medical direction for the nurse anesthetist. other states require the consent or order of a physician or other qualified licensed provider to administer the anesthetic.

nurses have been administering anesthesia for 150 years.. dating to the civil war.....the official first nurse was sister mary benard in 1877. the first school of nurse anesthesia was formed in 1909 at st. vincent hospital, portland, oregon. established by agnes mcgee, the course was six months long, and included courses on anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, and administration of common anesthetic agents. the council of accredation were developed in the 1970's around 1976. around 1978 an official masters collegiate cirriculum at cal state with kaiser perm. in the united states, nurse anesthetists practice under the state's nursing practice act (not medical practice acts), which outlines the scope of practice for anesthesia nursing.

so, i'm not as uneducated as you think...... want to be crna.:heartbeat

the largest group in independent practicing crnas are the military and you mentioned civilian pay.....are you military? i didn't say crna's weren't good at what they do....they're nurses so i have every faith they are educated and caring and are perfectly capable and conciencious....in some instances mor3e than md's because we all know how they can be.

i didn't say it wasn't cost effective to have crna's i said to the op....if you want the same pay as an md then be an md. we as nurses....we all deserve more pay. the amount of responsibility we are burdened with far supasses our reimbursement in our pockets.

op you can request for crna's to answer, but you cannot dictate who does....it's the nature of the site.

good luck in school!!!!!! peace....:smokin:

------------------------

and what state exactly do you live in? there is a difference between national/federal/state legal policy and independent groups coming up with position papers and standard of care policies. as far as i know, and i encourage you to correct me, there is no state that has a state law that requires a mda to be present during induction or extubation. the only state laws (that i know of) that is tied into this policy has to do with billing issues. if the mda follows the independent group's standard of care policy then they are able to bill medicare 100% value of their services. if they do not follow the independent group's standards then they are only allowed to bill 50% (or some appreciatively lower percentage) for their services. no one is being arrestested, no licenses are being retracted in the latter case. it is merely a billing issue that some like to contort in order to inflate their egos. there is no state that bans independent practice of a crna. and again, if i'm wrong,.. please update me with the state statute. ( and i say this without sarcasm..seriously.)

as for the pay issue. there are drawbacks for every path that one may take. like others said, if you want something, take the path thats going to lead you there. crna is not the path if you're looking for 200k base salary. as for md's getting paid more because they take on a greater responsibility....you are both responsible for the patients life, responsible for assessing the patient and anticipating crisis. you are both equally in danger of being sued.

like almost all careers, the more school, the more suffering, the more money.

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the level of ignorance regarding the nurse anesthetist profession on this website is absolutely astounding. that is why you do not find too many crnas posting. crnas have actually been around for more than 100 years and "otjt" ended in sister mary bernard's day (1880's). i have never heard of an "assistant anesthesia rn". i have heard of anesthesiologist assistants. they are not necessarily nurses but they have been practicing for over 32 years. there are also no programs that run 15-18 months and you cannot get your degree online. we do not practice under a physician's license. we practice under our own license. we are allowed to administer anesthesia independently. in fact there are many crna only groups throughout the united states. do you think crnas in the armed services practice under the license of an anesthesiologist? may i suggest reading a book called watchful care by marianne bankert. it will give you a pretty solid history lesson concerning nurse anesthetists. also, if you really want to know what we can or cannot do, check out a more reliable site, aana.com. that way, the next time a poster would like to comment on the practice rights of a crna they will be accurate.

if one is angry with their salary or resentful of someone else because they make more...welcome to life. it is not always fair. there is no rule that says it has to be. crnas are paid what they are worth because of market demand and location. want to make more, go work in independent practice, moonlight or move to a rural location. no one is stopping you.

http://www.amazon.com/watchful-care-history-americas-anesthetists/dp/082640510x

i have no idea if there really ever was such a position as "assistant anesthesia rn," but you can't assume that there wasn't just because you never heard of it. you own post states that crnas have been around for more than 100 years, and you are still young at 31, so they could have existed before "your time."

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