DOCTORATE for CRNA's? - page 5

The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse... Read More

  1. by   NGACRNA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NGACRNA

    Hmmm, eleven years of education/experience...could've been an orthopod or something....




    Your numbers are a little off. A bachelor's is still a four year degree. The minimum experience is one year. The DNP program is 3 years. More like a total of 8 years post high school.
    Look at the AACN's site. They're pushing for 5 year BSNs. CRNA schools may only require one year of "acute" care, but most applicants have 2 or more years in the ICU.

    The AANA/COA requires that Doctorate degrees are demonstratably and significantly beyond the scope of the masters level. Some CRNA schools are 24-36 months. If we have to demonstrate it's beyond the 36 month master level, we've added at least a year. 5+2+4=11. Sure, some will be able to do it quicker, and others may take longer.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NGACRNA

    CRNA "D" wants to get a DNP because their state licensing board says they have to have one in 2015 (worst case, non-grandfathered scenario). They look at the options and see things like 33-56 hours of post-master's work..



    I think this is off too. I know of at least one post master's DNP that is 24 hours, for CRNAs.
    Sure, Case Western is 24 hours. UT Memphis is 56! http://nursing.utmem.edu/academic%20...thschedule.php
    How long will it take part time?? Three years for a DNP is long, especially considering the above and below:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NGACRNA
    And lastly, why don't we just get credit for the hours we take in CRNA schools already. My degree was a master's level because they wouldn't honestly add in the number of clinical hours I completed. Otherwise, it would've broke the 110 hour mark.



    It is my understanding that this is exactly why the idea is taking off so quickly. Many programs are finding they are already close to doctorate hours and requirements. Some programs will add very little in the way of work, and yet their graduates will be getting a doctorate.

    Nursing doctorates are experts in NURSING. They are not, and do not want to be doctors of MEDICINE. The comparision of timelines just isn't applicable to the discussion in the first place, anyway.
    Point #1. Why add "fluff" if we can get the credit we're already due. 100+ hours for CRNAs as it is should = Doctorate. Adding even 16 hours will add at least a year. How about those 36 month programs? What are they gonna do?

    Point #2. Who's gonna teach this? Whether 24 or 56 hours post masters, that'll take a lot of time in a part time status. We've got 90+ schools with more coming. Who's going to staff them? Also, TN just stopped grandfathering non-masters prepared CRNAs. What happens when state BONs start mandating the DNP.

    I find the comparison of time not only applicable, but poignant. As for the comment about APNs not wanting to be doctors, please go read a few of their bulletin boards. They really let the dirty laundy show, just as much as we do.

    If there's a shortage of providers and teachers, the quicker and often cheaper alternative becomes more attractive. Please call the AANA and ask what their plan is.

    I'm now going to bed.
  2. by   tkcgjones
    Quote from NGACRNA
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NGACRNA

    Hmmm, eleven years of education/experience...could've been an orthopod or something....




    Your numbers are a little off. A bachelor's is still a four year degree. The minimum experience is one year. The DNP program is 3 years. More like a total of 8 years post high school.
    Look at the AACN's site. They're pushing for 5 year BSNs. CRNA schools may only require one year of "acute" care, but most applicants have 2 or more years in the ICU.

    The AANA/COA requires that Doctorate degrees are demonstratably and significantly beyond the scope of the masters level. Some CRNA schools are 24-36 months. If we have to demonstrate it's beyond the 36 month master level, we've added at least a year. 5+2+4=11. Sure, some will be able to do it quicker, and others may take longer.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NGACRNA

    CRNA "D" wants to get a DNP because their state licensing board says they have to have one in 2015 (worst case, non-grandfathered scenario). They look at the options and see things like 33-56 hours of post-master's work..



    I think this is off too. I know of at least one post master's DNP that is 24 hours, for CRNAs.
    Sure, Case Western is 24 hours. UT Memphis is 56! http://nursing.utmem.edu/academic%20...thschedule.php
    How long will it take part time?? Three years for a DNP is long, especially considering the above and below:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NGACRNA
    And lastly, why don't we just get credit for the hours we take in CRNA schools already. My degree was a master's level because they wouldn't honestly add in the number of clinical hours I completed. Otherwise, it would've broke the 110 hour mark.



    It is my understanding that this is exactly why the idea is taking off so quickly. Many programs are finding they are already close to doctorate hours and requirements. Some programs will add very little in the way of work, and yet their graduates will be getting a doctorate.

    Nursing doctorates are experts in NURSING. They are not, and do not want to be doctors of MEDICINE. The comparision of timelines just isn't applicable to the discussion in the first place, anyway.
    Point #1. Why add "fluff" if we can get the credit we're already due. 100+ hours for CRNAs as it is should = Doctorate. Adding even 16 hours will add at least a year. How about those 36 month programs? What are they gonna do?

    Point #2. Who's gonna teach this? Whether 24 or 56 hours post masters, that'll take a lot of time in a part time status. We've got 90+ schools with more coming. Who's going to staff them? Also, TN just stopped grandfathering non-masters prepared CRNAs. What happens when state BONs start mandating the DNP.

    I find the comparison of time not only applicable, but poignant. As for the comment about APNs not wanting to be doctors, please go read a few of their bulletin boards. They really let the dirty laundy show, just as much as we do.

    If there's a shortage of providers and teachers, the quicker and often cheaper alternative becomes more attractive. Please call the AANA and ask what their plan is.

    I'm now going to bed.


    Breyer State University offers a DNS completly on-line. It is a private university that is NOT regionally accredited, but does have a list of organizations it is accredited through. It is a 90 semester hour doctorate and set up very well. The president of BSU is a PhD prepared RN.

    Do a search for their web site and see what you think. The degree won't prepare you for a university faculty position, but should meet one's personal needs. All responses welcomed.

    Tim
  3. by   tkcgjones
    Sorry if I'm repeating myself but I'm new to this forum.

    Breyer State University is an on-line program offering a Doctor of Nursing Science. BSU is NOT regionally accredited, but does offer accreditation through several organizations that I cannot attest to. If one's goal is a university faculty position then this program would not offer you the opportunity to meet your goal; however, it may be a program where one can obtain a doctorate degree on your time table and focus on nurse anesthesia.

    Perform a search for BSU or DNS and see what you think.

    Tim
  4. by   rsh3rn
    fine idea as soon as all MD's have PHD's
  5. by   loisane
    Quote from NGACRNA
    Quote:
    Why add "fluff" if we can get the credit we're already due.
    This might be the crux of our disagreement. I acknowledge that many nurses value clinical education more highly than academics, especially in theory and research. I do not consider these things, or the other topics invoved in doctoral education, to be "fluff".

    On this, as well as your other points, I think we just have to agree to disagree.

    loisane crna
  6. by   91CRN
    I agree with the thoughts on this thread that it would be a positive step to make the educational standard for advanced practice nursing a doctorate. I DO HOWEVER think the amount of coursework/clinical hours spent in each specialty should be re-examined. I've been trying to bring this up in other threads too. Let me illustrate: by the time an RN, BSN gets into a CRNA program with the requisite critical care hours, certifications and prerequisites (many outside a normal BSN program--like (PHYSICS, advanced MATH and O-CHEM), goes thru the 50 something credit hours++all the clinical time, you have a person who has delivered well OVER the requirement for JUST ABOUT ANY DOCTORAL PROGRAM I CAN THINK OF. This SIMPLY isn't fair. It's a huge expense, not to mention the time and effort to put into something that others spend much less time EARNING--and IT'S OVERKILL TO BOOT. Mind you, I'm not saying the time isn't necessary--I'm merely pointing out that the proper ACADEMIC credit is not awarded for everything. My point is--give a person REAL CREDIT for getting thru this program--the MS just doesn't cut it. Backtracking a little--look at the prerequisite work to get into a diploma or AA RN program; likewise these nurses could do a LITTLE more work (if everything were reasonably recognized) and come out with a BSN---so you see----this is way from the beginning. I think unless we re-examine EVERYTHING we are building a house of cards. How will we attract the right people into these professions when they know they can start out in med school (with the same course work, time dedication and money) and go straight thru to an anesthesia residency!--using the CRNA analogy. Now I know I'll get flamed on this--comparing to the docs--but I don't care---IT'S THE TRUTH.
    PS the odds of getting into med school are starting to look a lot better than the odds of getting into a CRNA program too!
    PSS many people are attracted to nursing in the beginning because it looks like a stable career with a good salary and it is--it's when you are moving up the ladder that things scew--are you getting me---when we start thinking of nursing as a profession---getting me more------because people in general don't consider an RN a professional designation----GOT IT! THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE TRYING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF---WE WILL HAVE TO DECONSTRUCT TO DO IT RIGHT. OH I COULD GO ON FOREVER--I'LL GIVE YOU ALL A BREAK.
  7. by   91CRN
    Hey,
    I was just reading up the thread and realized that I repeated things already said--so do forgive--but glad to drive these points home. Also, I wonder why it illicits such anger when an RN brings up comparisons to MDs? Of course we all know we have a different profession. I think we are all sticking our heads in the sand if we don't understand that the further you go in nursing--CRNA, NP, RESEARCH---whatever, the lines DO get a little blurred--not that as an RN I want to practice medicine--but hey, I just had some more clinical shadowing pre-CRNA program--looked in on cases with MDAs and CRNA's and guess what--same job--the overseeing by the MDAs was minimal if not non-existant and dare I say for the record ONLY. I really don't care who out there is kidding themselves. I just want to provide anesthesia as my specialty, I'm willing to put in the work to get there--so what if we do the same job minus a twist. I JUST became aware of the existance of Anesthesia Assistants and looked at the programs for this specialty too hhhmmmmmmmmmmm---I don't care what the CRNAs say about that either--looks like the same preparation to me--I haven't interviewed any of those folks yet though. Just saying, if CRNA programs DO the work of a DOCTORAL program-- AND THEY DO-- but are only awarded an MS--why not go be an anesthesia assistant who doesn't require all the clinical time PRIOR that you don't get any credit for? FOOD FOR THOUGHT
    PS I am bringing this up to discuss--it does look like employment for AA's is more limited in some states--and I'm sure I'll find out other unfavorables, but it brings up an interesting perspective--going back to my initial question--why does it illicit so much anger to compare professions and the actual work? Does it have something to do with the paying of DUES we are all so CRAZY about? What about CRNA programs that consider one year of E.D. experience adequate and others that require 2-3 of high acuity CVICU. Many of us have different backgrounds and quantifying those experiences is difficult. What about people who are just plain talented with very little ICU but have it all over those with YEARS? If you are not giving credit for it--do it all the way!!!!
  8. by   MmacFN
    In canada the entry level for RNs is a 4 year science degree. There are no ADNs no diplomas and in order to be a doctorate you must have a masters first.

    Ive read the AA deal jwk. Why do you come here exactly since all you will probably see is hostility? While im a generally nice person, politically, i totally against AAs and how they cheapen the profession. Sorry, its true and a long held opinion.

    Oh, before your silly enough to quote off the stuff from your web site, Dont, ive read the propoganda machine. Oh, dont bother quoting the "we take ochem crap" i took it. I was pre med before deciding to go CRNA route. BTW Ochem is useless in anesthesia care, ask any MDA.

    Ok, there. Ive set the conversation back to anti AA

    No offence jwk just being a pot stirrer ;P


    Quote from jwk
    OK, an AA - there, I said it. I feel the luv already!

    Honestly though, you do make an excellent point. A potential 11 year track for an entry level CRNA is a long road. It will exacerbate an already significant shortage of CRNA's in many areas. The powers-that-be have never even been able to force a BSN for entry-level RN's in most states. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out by 2015.
  9. by   91CRN
    Quote from MmacFN
    In canada the entry level for RNs is a 4 year science degree. There are no ADNs no diplomas and in order to be a doctorate you must have a masters first.

    Ive read the AA deal jwk. Why do you come here exactly since all you will probably see is hostility? While im a generally nice person, politically, i totally against AAs and how they cheapen the profession. Sorry, its true and a long held opinion.

    Oh, before your silly enough to quote off the stuff from your web site, Dont, ive read the propoganda machine. Oh, dont bother quoting the "we take ochem crap" i took it. I was pre med before deciding to go CRNA route. BTW Ochem is useless in anesthesia care, ask any MDA.

    Ok, there. Ive set the conversation back to anti AA

    No offence jwk just being a pot stirrer ;P


    I thought the conversation was about CRNAs requiring doctorate degrees!!! On your assertion that O-chem isn't that useful in the practice of anesthesia--FINE, I don't even practice yet, I'm still jumping thru all the hoops to get into a program; a lot of programs want o-chem, bio-chem, physics--sound familiar,'''''''' yes it does--pre med. I should add that many medical schools are wising up and actually accepting applicants with more of a liberal arts background!! Like I said, I just want to provide anesthesia, I didn't make these things true and if I could change them I would. BTW I am a less than BSN--RN(will be for another 2 semesters), and you can bet your '''''' when the'''''' hits it, my colleagues would rather have me around than the CNS or any other ''''''''poser running around our hospital!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree that a BSN should be entry level--BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU DO!!!!
    OH YES, JUST STIRRING THE POT.
  10. by   MmacFN
    First let me say i have no idea what your ranting about.

    Now on to the comments.


    I thought the conversation was about CRNAs requiring doctorate degrees!!! On your assertion that O-chem isn't that useful in the practice of anesthesia--FINE, I don't even practice yet, I'm still jumping thru all the hoops to get into a program; a lot of programs want o-chem, bio-chem, physics--sound familiar,'''''''' yes it does--pre med.

    I did all the pre med pre reqs. However, i still dont know what your talking about?


    Like I said, I just want to provide anesthesia, I didn't make these things true and if I could change them I would. BTW I am a less than BSN--RN(will be for another 2 semesters),

    Again, what are you ranting about exactly? My comments were directed at an AA not you.

    and you can bet your '''''' when the'''''' hits it, my colleagues would rather have me around than the CNS or any other ''''''''poser running around our hospital!

    Uh huh. Again, totally confused about what your talking about. However, let me assure you im not a CNS im a flight RN with all ICU and ER/Trauma background. So, again, whats your point?I agree that a BSN should be entry level--BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU DO!!!!
    OH YES, JUST STIRRING THE POT
    .

    Wow. Again, you make no sense or any points, it seems. Since i didnt say why i thought it should be entry level im not sure you know why i think it should. You need to clarify whatever it is your saying because it simply looks like rambling.
  11. by   91CRN
    Quote from MmacFN
    First let me say i have no idea what your ranting about.

    Now on to the comments.


    I thought the conversation was about CRNAs requiring doctorate degrees!!! On your assertion that O-chem isn't that useful in the practice of anesthesia--FINE, I don't even practice yet, I'm still jumping thru all the hoops to get into a program; a lot of programs want o-chem, bio-chem, physics--sound familiar,'''''''' yes it does--pre med.

    I did all the pre med pre reqs. However, i still dont know what your talking about?


    Like I said, I just want to provide anesthesia, I didn't make these things true and if I could change them I would. BTW I am a less than BSN--RN(will be for another 2 semesters),

    Again, what are you ranting about exactly? My comments were directed at an AA not you.

    and you can bet your '''''' when the'''''' hits it, my colleagues would rather have me around than the CNS or any other ''''''''poser running around our hospital!

    Uh huh. Again, totally confused about what your talking about. However, let me assure you im not a CNS im a flight RN with all ICU and ER/Trauma background. So, again, whats your point?I agree that a BSN should be entry level--BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU DO!!!!
    OH YES, JUST STIRRING THE POT
    .

    Wow. Again, you make no sense or any points, it seems. Since i didnt say why i thought it should be entry level im not sure you know why i think it should. You need to clarify whatever it is your saying because it simply looks like rambling.
    Hey--no fair. This is an on-line forum. I wasn't writing a paper/essay. You JUST SOUND MEAN. To be more to the point--as if the first sentence of my last posting didn't say it all---This is a thread about the fact that CRNA's may, in the near-future be required to have a doctorate. NOT about entry levels of education for RN licensure. The rest of my post was me reacting to you--so I won't bother to explain it to you as it wasn't important. I know you aren't a CNS--I wasn't writing about you!:angryfire
  12. by   lindarn
    Quote from 91CRN
    Hey--no fair. This is an on-line forum. I wasn't writing a paper/essay. You JUST SOUND MEAN. To be more to the point--as if the first sentence of my last posting didn't say it all---This is a thread about the fact that CRNA's may, in the near-future be required to have a doctorate. NOT about entry levels of education for RN licensure. The rest of my post was me reacting to you--so I won't bother to explain it to you as it wasn't important. I know you aren't a CNS--I wasn't writing about you!:angryfire
    I am not a CRNA, nor do I desire to be one. With that said, I admit that I have not read through all of the threads on this subject. Seeing that PHYSICAL THERAPISTS now have a DOCTORATE as entry into practice, do you really think, that a career that has a patients life in their hands during surgery, should have an educational preparation less than a PT?. A Doctorate to be really not much more than a glorified exercise tech, like the ones in your health club? (I have a minor in physical education and had many pre PT majors in my classes. So I can comment on their educational preparation- it is not different from the PE majors). I think that all advanced practice nurses should have a doctorate. JMHO. And my NY $0.02.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN ,CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  13. by   Pete495
    Actually, you will find that there are a lot of others on this board who are not even RN's, that still participate. We welcome their participation because it is afterall an open forum.

    You will also find that most good anesthesia practitioners put their political feelings aside, whether they're working with CRNA's, RN's, anesthesia tech's, MDA's, whoever all for the team approach to make the best possible anesthesia experience for their patient. I think you went a little far to say that AA's cheapen the profession. JWK freely ascertains that he does not intend to practice independently. Do I agree that they stir the political pot. yes, but so do MDA's and CRNA's. most of the veterans on this board are tired of debating the same stupid conversations that get us no where, like independent pratice for all. If aa's cheapen the profession, then crna's must do the same thing for mda's, or is it vice versa? who really cares is my opinion. We all have the same goal in mind.





    Quote from MmacFN
    In canada the entry level for RNs is a 4 year science degree. There are no ADNs no diplomas and in order to be a doctorate you must have a masters first.

    Ive read the AA deal jwk. Why do you come here exactly since all you will probably see is hostility? While im a generally nice person, politically, i totally against AAs and how they cheapen the profession. Sorry, its true and a long held opinion.

    Oh, before your silly enough to quote off the stuff from your web site, Dont, ive read the propoganda machine. Oh, dont bother quoting the "we take ochem crap" i took it. I was pre med before deciding to go CRNA route. BTW Ochem is useless in anesthesia care, ask any MDA.

    Ok, there. Ive set the conversation back to anti AA

    No offence jwk just being a pot stirrer ;P

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