Specialties CRNA
Published Feb 8, 2004
You are reading page 3 of Did anyone else see the show on Anesthesia Awareness on Discovery Health tonight?
loisane
415 Posts
Awareness while under? I had bilateral carpal tunnel done and the physician that I knew and worked with as a RN had the anesthesia guy WAKE ME UP during surgery so the good doc could give me an anatomy lesson on my hand while it was split wide open.
Are you sure this was done with malice? I have given many anesthetics for carpal tunnel under a local or regional technique. This is a good example of a type of surgery that does not require general anesthesia. I ask the patient how sleepy they would like to be. Some want to be completely out, others prefer to stay awake. Either way, I try to accomodate them.
Surgeons think their work is as interesting to others as it is to them. If the patient is awake, I have had surgeons ask them if they would like to watch the surgery. Of course, there is no excuse for submitting a patient to something they did not agree to. But perhaps your surgeon was guilty of bad judgement, and not deliberately trying to torment you.
loisane crna
Mary Austin
40 Posts
All gone! It was only a dream.
jwk
1,102 Posts
I was not under general anesthesia but I remember that I could not move anything from the neck down. I wanted to sit up when he did that for some reason. My head was turned to the left and he was doing my right hand at the time. The doctor called my name and held my hand UP for me to see it otherwise my arm was down for him to do his work. I had to turn my head to see this when he called my name. This was done with MALICE for sure. I never signed a consent for him to wake me during surgery for a anatomy lesson. I asked to be "out" because I did not like seeing surgery. I made that known before surgery to both docs. They did it anyway. Mary
Mary
Trying to imply (as you started out doing) that your experience is the same as having awareness while under a general anesthetic is ludicrous, and does a dis-service to the rare few that this has actually happened to. This is a misunderstanding between you, your surgeon, and your anesthesiologist, and an unrealistic expectation on your part about your anesthesia.
"I don't want a general anesthetic because I'm afraid of going to sleep, but I don't want to know anything" is simply an unrealistic expectation by you and any other patient. Being aware during sedation is NOT the same as being aware during a general. Sorry, you're complaining to the wrong crowd here!
Mary - I'll take back pretty much everything I said in my previous reply to you. Somewhere along the line you've gotten a little confused. You were NOT under a general anesthetic. That means you WEREN'T ASLEEP for your surgery. There would be no consent for waking you during surgery since YOU WEREN'T ASLEEP. You may have been sedated, BUT THAT'S NOT A GENERAL ANESTHETIC. And you need to learn the definition of malice - it implies a deliberate intent to do harm, and this simply isn't it.Trying to imply (as you started out doing) that your experience is the same as having awareness while under a general anesthetic is ludicrous, and does a dis-service to the rare few that this has actually happened to. This is a misunderstanding between you, your surgeon, and your anesthesiologist, and an unrealistic expectation on your part about your anesthesia. "I don't want a general anesthetic because I'm afraid of going to sleep, but I don't want to know anything" is simply an unrealistic expectation by you and any other patient. Being aware during sedation is NOT the same as being aware during a general. Sorry, you're complaining to the wrong crowd here!
JWK....why you are absolutely right about all this...how crazy of me to believe that I was treated with Malice. You must be a member of the "old boys club" too.
Just curious - where did your original post disappear to? It's contained within one of my replies, but the original is gone, and your further posts have been significantly edited as well.
wernota#werpeople
4 Posts
Wow, I have been away for a while and I see things got interesting. Well back to the main issue at hand. I like to disagree with your argument on saying that you have to use a NMB. What did they use when they did not have a NMB back in the days? They must have used some thing else to control your muscle movement. But lets just say that is the case, I will go back to what I had mentioned before which I feel I got no real response back. Why not the isolated forearm technique? Your muscles are all relax so you can intubait your patient and have muscle relaxation so you can operate. But the difference is I could signal if I'm awake!
I have read some studies and spoken with anesthesiolgists in the UK in the past who all say you can achieve perfect anesthesia by using this technique. About a year ago, speaking with a anesthesiologist who teaches anesthesia over 33 years who leads the MAA6 in the UK and dedicates his life to teaching others that they do not have to keep useing a combination of complicated drugs that can result in awareness. He stresses the isolated forearm technique. I asked him why aren't more doctors doing this. He simply stated "the ones that know and are concerned about awareness during anesthesia come, and the ones who don't, don't come. He told me he teaches others with the help of donations and sponsers from other people and companys and that he wrote a letter to a company who makes NMB drugs and asked them to make a contribution. They wrote back and replyed that they thought he didn't want anything to do with there company. He replyed and said "if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be discussing anesthesia awareness." You can say he got a donation from them.
But back to the point at hand, I also found other material stateing that they conducted many trials and found that you could successfully intubait without a NMB. Like you said, some people have to have there muscels relaxed in there throat because some patients have problems and are difficult to intubait. So once again why not the isolated forearm technique?
I think we should pay more attention to the anesthesiologists who spent there whole career dedicating themselves to eliminate anesthesia awareness and the outcome that follows. And get all the education out there when it comes to anesthesia. The more you know the less likely this will happen to you. I looked all over looking into the United States to see if they have work shops that concentrate on ways to eliminate awareness during anesthesia. To where any anesthesiologist can go to to learn. Maybe I'm wrong and I wasn't looking in the right places, or maybe its just that its not known like it should be. I would think since this is a problem that they would.
Oh yes, you ask who am I refering to when I say "Littman." I'm sorry, I should have prof read my story, I meant Litwiller, Roger Litwiller. (I probably spelled it wrong again) He is the president of the ASA. But I think you already knew that.
He says that all the trials are bias since they are being funded by certain companys. So I basically wrote to him asking when are we going to be expecting an "unbias trial?" The answer we got was maybe in 2006. 2006!? I would think instead of refering to Carol and others like her who have experenced awareness, as a woman stiring up unwanted fear, he would put this motion to work! Take a stand Litwiller and make a move to correct this problem instead of keeping your head in the sand and ignoring it. This problem is not going away.
I will always make sure this topic is out in the open for all to see and hear. As long as I have a voice I will speak on it. (Since I was basically told I didn't have a voice because I imagined it!) Just so I can voice to others and for them to ask questions to there anesthesiologist. Or a anesthesiologist might come across my story and think twice and check every thing twice before working on there patient. I wish I was at a point in my life to where I could easily talk about this issue publicly. I have been asked by the Discovery show, a chili medical show, and CNN health to do interviews for them and I had to decline to all of them. Every time I say yes the nightmares intensify and so does the anxiety. It becomes extreamly debilitating. And right before having to do the interview I have to decline. My once normal life which I am trying to get back again is much more important to me then speaking live. Knowledge is the key and the more its out there the more people will ask questions. And we should be able to, like I said before, it is our lives we are putting on the table here and we expect well trained, unexhuasted, knowledgable anesthesiologists.
apaisRN, RN, CRNA
692 Posts
To the poster who was awake during gallbladder surgery - I am so, so sorry. I'm sorry it happened, but most of all I'm sorry you were made to feel crazy. If you'd been treated respectfully and honestly you would probably still have some residual PTSD, but not like this. It's like rape victims who aren't believed, or Vietnam vets who came back to be spit on. I really hope that you are receiving good care to help you feel better and live your life again.
Rest assured that this RN, who hopes to be a CRNA, has taken your story to heart and will remember it. Whatever the debates, it's a story all anesthesia providers should hear.
I want to express how much those understanding and supportive words meant to me. You understood everything with what I am trying to accomplish and what some people go through when they have experenced anesthesia awareness. I can tell you that you hit the nail on the head. The regular responses that I get are usually in defense. I have grown use to this since my surgery. That is why it has been my mission to make sure my voice is heard.
The same Doctors that pull you into there medical community and treat you like family, respectful and compassionate, were the same ones who abandoned me. After this had happened I was treated like an outcast because they didn't know what to do with me and they wanted it to all go away. I was ignored, lied to, told I must have dreamed it, and basically told me it was all in my head by other doctors in the community. I was left alone and left to find the answers to what and why. What people don't understand is that if the anesthesiologist handled things differently I don't think I still would be in this situation.
If he just would have explained to me the truth on what happened, showed compassion, and seeked medical help for me I believe it would have played out much differently. That is why I think its so important for others to hear so maybe God forbide if this happens to them they will know what not to do.
And thats usually how change occures, people who have gone through a horrible life changing experence, voice there concerns and wants change for others.
So for me I have been digging for over 4 years to find out what and why this happened to me. I have over 700 articles saved and over 1000's of papers that I have looked over. To anesthesia in itself, the drugs used, monitors, trials and workshops, and all different techniques used. I have tryed to get into contact with over hundreds of anesthesiologists around the world but sadly only a handful have responded. The ones that do respond respond defensivly.
I remember posting questions on a forum with anesthesiologists from all around the United States thinking I would defenatly recieve a response. Took awhile, no one wanted to touch it. Then when I did get a response it was "due to the fact the situation being so intense maybe some of what you recalled is a little fuzzy." Thats it? A little fuzzy? They missed the whole point! And targeted something I wrote in the post that they could debate instead of giving me some options to why and how this happened. They were trying to make me feel intimidated by there big words and knowledge about anesthesia. You feel as you are being revictimized all over again each time.
After 4 years I found a Anesthesiologist in the UK who graceously answered my questions that I so longed for. In a matter of one email. So much emotion came pouring out of me that day. I never cryed as much as I cryed that day. The sad part is I had lied to him saying I was a student doing a paper on awareness during anesthesia. After I got my answers I responded to him telling him who I really was and how sorry I was in decieving him. And told him I felt that was the only way I was going to get answers. He responded with the up most respect and compassion. And told me he didn't blame me at all and he would have done the same. He was just so happy that I got the answers I so needed and then some. I am friends with him to this day and has taken my story and has used it in his workshops out in the UK. Not only to anesthesiologist but to pychologists, therapists and so on.
My mission only now is to try to make change. That no one should ever be put in this type of situation only to be ignored, disbeilieved, and outcasted. The only way to do this is with a voice. And my voice has been shut down for to long by to many people. So in you saying that this has touched you as an RN soon to be CRNA means the world to me. You really heard me and you are taking to heart what you have learned and going to apply it towards your profession.
If we keep it hush hush, and don't discuss it how is change ever going to come about? How about discussing this issue and be honest instead of covering up what you can due to the fact the medical community is so afraid of being sued. I can speak for some victims who say they would have never sued if they were treated differently. What did our parents always tell us.... "when you lie and try to cover things up it will always come back to bite ya on the ***."
For the person who posted....I want to thank you and send you my warmest wishes and blessings on the road to becoming a CRNA. Your words were very comforting and you touched me with your understanding.