Anyone out there for the creation of the National Anesthesia games? - page 3

I've been thinking of ways in which CRNA's might "gain more respect" from the mainstream medical community (MDA's in particular). The parallel which occured to me was of all things home schooled... Read More

  1. by   London88
    Roland
    Whereas I normally keep a low profile on this BB, I find this issue very amusing. You are comparing you knowlegde about an unethical immoral event such as slavery with knowing what would be good for professionals of a certain profession. This essentially amounts to nonsense. If you are going to argue what would be good for CRNAs or MDAs, especially on this BB, it should be from the professional perspective of a CRNA or an MDA. What you are doing equates to the plumber next door telling me what would be good for RNs.
  2. by   fence
    Kevin--
    Bravo!!! You again have shown that you are of course a very professional person who deserves the respect of every user on this board. Not just because you are a CRNA but because you give each and every individual on this board respect. I have seen many posts that would have really ticked me off and you have alway's responded in a very professional manner. My hats off to you and I thank you for your input and inspiration.
    Jimmy
  3. by   Roland
    have given me and others. In the event that I am successful in becoming a CRNA I and others will owe you a considerable debt of gratitude. However, if you carefully read my posts I think it will be clear that I have never denigrated YOU personally and have often agreed with you (although I didn't perhaps have a post to indicate my agreement in all cases). Furthermore, my wife could tell you how I have often talked about how greatful I am to have someone like you with which to converse. Now, there have been times where I might have disagreed with a particular point you were making on a non technical question (one not relating to CRNA technical practice). In addition, within this thread I have not denigrated you for not liking the "game" concept. Rather, my criticism was focused upon your contention that the idea should not have even been offered by someone lacking sufficient experience.

    I make a huge distinction between intellectual debate about issues, and personal arguments. I make it a point to try and never engage in the latter. I was raised to believe that it was fitting and proper for any informed, thinking person to both offer ideas and debate such ideas with any other such person. Thus, if God offered me the opportunity (via his vast infinite powers) to somehow find myself in a room with Enrico Fermi, Sthephen Hawkins and Einstine, I would not hesitate to offer my ideas and listen to theirs (yes and perhaps even to debate). Obviously, they know an infinite an amount of information greater than myself, but that doesn't mean that all parties couldn't gain from such a dialogue (obviously me much more than them espcially since they are all deceased except for Mr. Hawkins).

    Lastly, I don't consider myself to have superior intelligence, just to be very hard working and driven. I give thanks and glory to God for all that I have or ever will have. Finally, without regard to how you feel about me I will continue to love and appreciate you for your contributions.
    Last edit by Roland on Oct 28, '02
  4. by   u-r-sleeepy
    My $.015 (adjusted for inflation)

    I actually took the time to read thru this pissed - oops, post - and I would simply add that I too, came here to discuss CRNA/Anesthesia related topics among PEERS primarily - not wannabees who will argue to the last word their presupposed ideas and suppositions on anesthesia and how it "really should be".

    I am confident that "wannabee" word will tick you off Roland - that's actually not my intention, but really, GIVE IT A REST! I like to encourage future and potential candidates to pursue becoming a CRNA as I believe it is a wonderful opportunity.

    To anyone else reading (still...!):

    I really enjoy the comments and discussion by current SRNAs and especially practicing CRNAs (like Kevin - a THOUSAND THANK YOUS!!!) and MDAs like Tenesma. I, for one, am GRATEFUL for the insight, guidance, and perspective that is gained. I find discusions on the technical side of things very interesting and hope they will continue.
  5. by   Roland
    before I ever participate in a forum I always take the time to read the guidelines AND the previous posts (in this case I took the time to read EVERY post and thread which has ever been placed on this board). In the course of the endeavor I saw many examples of people who were not CRNA's, or even presumably nurses for that matter offering opinions. In most cases they were not chastised or in any way denigrated for ther efforts. Furthermore, I saw nothing in the posting guidelines which indicated that those were the rules. If those are the guidelines for this forum then fine, I always play by the rules. However, they need to be posted as the rules if that is indeed what they are. For gosh darn sakes people it was just an idea. Love it or hate it I am truly mystified that so many educated individuals could be so incensed over something so basic (it's not even that controversial of an idea for that matter espcially compared to many other profferred on this board espcially under the General area).

    Finally, let me offer a specific example of how people with little actual experience (keep in mind I served my country as a medic for SIX years in the Navy with considerable experience in administering anesthesia, in a few cases under COMBAT conditions.) can sometimes make useful contributions. Consider this example as well. There was a local case of a police dog being accidently shot and killed by a policemen during the arrest of a suspect in Beech Grove Indiana, I think last year. In any case a little girl wondered why it was that POLICE DOGS didn't have bullet proof vests just like the people. She wrote various officials (presumably with the help of her parents) and eventually received coverage from the media. Basically, it came down to the fact that no one had ever considered the idea (at least locally) and there were also financial issues (kevlar isn't cheap). Well, its my understanding that as a result in part of her efforts that Beech Grove police dogs will be getting bullet proof vests in the near future.

    Now if a little girl can have a good idea isn't it possible that a thirty two year old man who eats and breaths science and anesthesia almost every waking hour might also? Even if THIS isn't such an idea, and I never do have one which is judged to be beneficial, I want others who MIGHT to feel free in putting theirs forth. Free intellectual discourse conducted in the spirit of scientific inquiry and without negative emotional involement is one path to enlightenment. I would submit that it is very good one at that.
    Last edit by Roland on Oct 28, '02
  6. by   WntrMute2
    One of our CRNAs has a saying..."You don't tell your father how to have sex." He's a little more graphic than that but you get the idea. Always needing the last word will not serve you well in CRNA school, I can promise you that.
  7. by   Roland
    when a discussion has transformed into an argument. However, I would also point out that their is a VERY substancial difference between a public forum designed (I presume) to facilitate the free exchange of ideas and information AND a school setting. That said, I usually don't hesitate to differ with my professors IF I have an opinion reasoned in logic. Usually they are receptive to this (frankly many are amazed to have a student who gives a daXX about science beyond just getting a good grade). Those who make it clear that they do not welcome such input, find no resistence from me. Again, I think it very important not only as a forum but as a society in general to recognize that people can have STRONG disagreements with POSITIONS or ideas that people have without making those disagreements personal. My philosophy is to put forth every logical argument (and counter argument) for my proposition which I can muster and THEN to let the listeners make up their minds. In this case they have, the idea that I offered was not favored. Fine, I then offered my best counterarguments but took issue with the personally directed statements (relating to my lack of experience).

    Hopefully, I will be able to be a good CRNA and make it through school (my family is counting on it). However, in the end I will continue to be an advocate for the truth to the best of my ability. The price of such advocacy is still in question.
    Last edit by Roland on Oct 28, '02
  8. by   kmchugh
    Roland

    In my previous post, I offered what was my last bit of advice to you. Since that post, you have offered three posts of your own. From the tone and content of your posts, I see not one word of what I wrote got through to you. As I said before, I wish you luck, but don't be surprised when your head is handed to you.

    Kevin McHugh
  9. by   Roland
    I've been insubordinate in a school or work environment. If they do so because I tend to ask questions and offer opinions then it is they who will be acting in a fashion that is contrary to logic. As to pride I am an overweight, balding white guy who long ago became largely impervious to insults. Thus, if "dressing down" is the worst that I can expect or getting "my head handed to me on a platter" I would submit that such is irrelevant (to me). I'm in school to offer my family a better future. I will work harder, put in longer hours than anyone in my class, and obey all rules to the best of my ability. Are you suggesting that someone would go outside the rhealm of acceptible teaching methods to harm me because they didn't like me or my attitude? That is something I wouldn't do to my worst enemy who just killed my dog. I presume no less from other educated individuals.

    I will recall the words of the great Margaret Thatcher after she sent an armada towards the Faulkland Islands to free them from Argentina. A reporter asked her "but what if we fail?" she replied simply that "failure is not an option." Neither is it for me.
    Last edit by Roland on Oct 28, '02
  10. by   Tenesma
    I am truly saddened by the outcome of this thread... Some of my favorite posters are now spending their time on this over-tread issue...

    Some of my colleagues ask me why I check out a CRNA board on breaks or when i am at home... well there is one very good reason (by the way, i am also active on other non-nursing forums) - we both share the same profession, we share the same patients and we both share the love for an amazing way to intervene in somebody's life...

    When I check out this board I am usually looking forward to discussions of anesthesia, different techniques, different ideas - maybe i can learn a thing or two - so far this discussion hasn't taugh me anything.

    Roland, I have to agree with Kevin - yes, you have to the rhetorical skills to argue yourself out of a wet paper bag (and i laud you for that) - but when you are going through CRNA school, the power dynamics will change unbelievably, and even the finest counter-points won't save you - instead you will not be loved by your peers and supervisors.

    Anesthesia games - you have shifted your idea multiple times from an MD vs CRNA to an MDvs MD/CRNAvsCRNA to now a forum of simulated training... Most large university based programs already have simulators where a large degree of error is allowed in your learning process, but you seem to be forgetting about all the training that goes on in the OR. The patients are our simulators, they are our true teachers, with lessons never forgotten...

    Anyway, I am looking forward to the next discussion on high-dose narcotics, remi-drips, premedication with antisialigogues, etc...


    PS: by the way, Kevin, I never disagree with you - I am just sometimes outraged that you can outsmart me on some topics just kidding
  11. by   kmchugh
    OK, I can't believe I'm still posting to you, but I will try one more time. I do see you as an intelligent person, Roland, and would hate to see you shoot yourself in the foot. You are so caught up in "science" and "logic," you are failing to see the forest for the trees. Lets look at your last post, and I'll try to spell out for you what's going to get you into trouble.

    "If they do so because I tend to ask questions and offer opinions then it is they who will be acting in a fashion that is contrary to logic."

    Whether you think "they" are acting contrary to logic matters not one whit. The issue is not who is more logical, who is more scientific. The issue is who is the instructor and who is the student. If you take the tone and air with your instructors that you are taking with me, you will rapidly find yourself with your head in your hands. More on why you should care about that later. And it won't be just the one day you will have problems. CRNA's talk, and people like you rapidly become well known in a community as a student who thinks himself smarter than instructors. Every day will be an uphill battle for you from that point on.

    "As to pride I am an overweight, balding white guy who long ago became largely impervious to insults. Thus, if "dressing down" is the worst that I can expect or getting "my head handed to me on a platter" I would submit that such is irrelevant (to me). I'm in school to offer my family a better future. I will work harder, put in longer hours than anyone in my class, and obey all rules to the best of my ability. Are you suggesting that someone would go outside the rhealm of acceptible teaching methods to harm me because they didn't like me or my attitude? That is something I wouldn't do to my worst enemy who just killed my dog. I presume no less from other educated individuals."

    First: Having your head handed to you better stop being irrelevant to you pronto. You say you are trying to get a better future for yourself and your family. The way you are going, I hope you have a backup plan to being a CRNA, because you aren't going to get there with your attitude. Second: Whatever you "presume" from other educated individuals, what ever you would or wouldn't do to your worst enemy who killed your dog is what is irrelevant. Allow me to give you an example of what I am talking about. Suppose you were assigned to do an anesthetic for surgery A today. You are a good student, and you read up on the surgery and ways to perform the anesthetic for that surgery, and are prepared with drug B, which your books recommended as a good way to do this anesthetic. Your assigned CRNA comes in and says, no, I don't want you to use drug B, I want you to use drug X. Being the kind of person you are, you argue, and you might even "win." The CRNA allows you to use drug B. But on your evaluation, the CRNA writes "this student is not open to learning new techniques, and is not flexible in his anesthetic plan. Further, this student made it apparent that he felt he knew more about anesthesia than his instructor. I would prefer not to be assigned this student any further." None of what that instructor has written is unprofessional or inaccurate in the least. A couple of these evaluations, and you are on probation. A few instructors talk among themselves about students, and now all the CRNA's know that you believe yourself to be smarter than the instructors. At that point, your school career, and your future as a CRNA are effectively over, and justifiably so. You are not flexible, you are not willing to learn from the experience of others, and that makes you dangerous to patients.

    "I will recall the words of the great Margaret Thatcher after she sent an armada towards the Faulkland Islands to free them from Argentina. A reporter asked her "but what if we fail?" she replied simply that "failure is not an option." Neither is it for me."

    Of course, when PM Thatcher said that, her success or failure was in her own hands. Your success or failure is in the hands of others, who will ultimately care not at all what you see as your "options."

    If you want to argue the point more, fine. But I am promising you, myself, and others on this board, this will be the last time I try to reason with you in a reasonable manner. No matter what you believe, there comes a time when someone with no experience in a given field must accept that a person with experience in that field might have some greater base of knowledge. If you come back with a response to defend your position, if you try to tell me further why you are right, and I am being obstinate, then I wash my hands of the whole thing. I will put you on ignore, and you will be on your own as far as I am concerned.

    Kevin McHugh, CRNA
    Last edit by kmchugh on Oct 28, '02
  12. by   Roland
    I have caused angst among those whose opinions I DO value highly. In addition, I understand and believe every word that you say with regard to school. Even so it may be difficult given my personality to avoid the pitfalls which you describe. In any case thanks, I'll try to do better in the future.
  13. by   London88
    Since Maggie Thatchers name came up in this issue, i was still living in England when Maggie Thatcher told Spielberg words to the effect of concentrate on film making and leave the politics to the politicians. I do believe Spielberg was voicing opinions about her politics. Perhaps decisions on what is best for CRNAs or MDAs would be better decided by CRNAs and MDAs!

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